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What is in a gear box?

Discussion in 'Technical' started by Raj_pol, Sep 4, 2015.

  1. Raj_pol

    Raj_pol Regolare

    Messages:
    495
    Bangalore
    Punto Evo 1.3
    @Mods, I am not sure where to post the thread so posting it here. Please move it to the appropriate section.

    So I was thinking about one of the biggest negative points about the FIAT (at least with the MJD, T-jet I will not comment as I have not driven it extensively). That is the gearbox and reams of articles, arguments and counter arguments have been written about the same. I personally have driven the Swift, the Hyundai Eon, Honda City and of course the Punto EVO. Now there definitely is an issue with the gearbox - the gear does not slot (misses while in 1st, mostly in 2nd for me and sometimes while reversing). Even while I was training, never happened to me with the Swift. Any reasons as to why FIAT is not doing anything about it - are they technically incapable or the low volumes in India do not justify an improvement. Also, why not a butter smooth gearbox for the EVO T-jet (if they have not done it already) since they have done all the other investments.

    Please stick to the topic in hand and and do not get all wishy washy about the brand.
    nkrishnap likes this.
  2. shams

    shams Esperto

    Messages:
    2,388
    Bangalore
    It involves substantial cost and it hardly makes any difference for the mass market which is the target audience here so it is not considered as something which can add to the sales. cost benefit analysis for this based on market research would surely turn out negative.
    punto11 and prabhjot like this.
  3. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    3,000
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    Are they technically incapable !? :wtf:

    Fiat Powertrain innovations
    varunrtr and prabhjot like this.
  4. Raj_pol

    Raj_pol Regolare

    Messages:
    495
    Bangalore
    Punto Evo 1.3
    @asimpleson My question would still remain - why is the gearbox iffy then and the second is Fiat never had huge volumes in India so they would have (I assume) bought the gearbox as it from the rest of the markets where the Punto is sold. Do all of these markets have a problem with the gearbox? Or is it only for India and is more of a localization issue?
  5. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    3,000
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    I agree with it. I wish I could pin point exactly where it went wrong with the mating of GB and Engine or Tune or if all have lacunae in it. As you may be aware this issue has been bothering many a Fiat owners and very less number of percentage of owners have trained themselves to never ask this question to themselves and rather enjoy whatever remains to be experienced, which is not less either. We must note that Palio Gearbox with MJD was fun and it wasn't as much a pain in lower gears as per various users I interacted with.
    Also we must note that both Tata and Maruti (and not Maruti alone) have had a better mating and tune with their respective offerings.

    But I wouldn't question, their technical capability; rather their management of things even when exisiting technological prowess it there and that too more than one dedicated entities in their group.
  6. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    The same gearbox on the t-jet is fine. I mean one can always wish for more or less notchiness, more or less short-throw-ness, but the gearbox is a non-issue. What is at issue is its 'feel' which is not 'slick' enough, though even that improves like the engines themselves after say 10K kms. Given the very widespread preference for 'slick-shifting' established by the dominant brands.

    They'll address this only when the all-new models arrive in 2017 (Fiat and Jeep). It would be financially imprudent to introduce a new transmission on the existing cars, especially since contrary to the internet chattering by pretend-aficionado-s of gear-shifting (Team Bhp) the un-slick gear shift action has nothing to do with weak sales numbers one feels. Among such folk and the automags too, it is more an excuse not to buy a Fiat than a reason for not doing so! And is in any case GROSSLY exagerrated (like the 'huge turbo-lag'....)
  7. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    3,000
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    No No @prabhjot, must disagree there on that exagerrated bit! See the point is that most MJD owners complain of this. Whether TBHP or not. So exagerrated mate its certainly not. If I have understood correctly, the issue is that one slots the gear and the car moves like say even a small suzuki petrol engine would (mind you not accelerate) but just move the effortless way without too many up shifts, down shifts and all in lower gears is what every MJD owner would love to have. Once in powerband and upper gears, there is not much to complain about although yes there is certainly room for improvement there, which is why you see how remaps are putting smiles back on face of many MJD owners who have opted for the same.
    prabhjot likes this.
  8. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    @asimpleson

    agreed that the gear ratio-s may be an issue, but only relative to some people's preference for not having to learn&adapt to the engine's torque curve/turboboost. My sense is that Fiat have geared the mjd-s (not sure of the Avventura) in order of course to get better fuel economy and excellent turboband performance at higher speeds. The point being that there's nothing wrong with the gearbox per se at all, other than the 'shift action feel and throw' (for some.)
  9. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    3,000
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    @prabhjot, the shift action and feel and throw is also as they term it "notchiness'. However, I agree to the learn and adapt you suggest, although many will argue its downright wrong to expect to keep shifting because car looses motion/momentum. Especially those who have driven peppier diesels of other brands. These diesels while not the best in FE or NVH or overall performance across the rev range and more aptly not being SDE or small displacements may not also be so much capable or superor in their existing designs including bore, piston and valve train and injection and intake and exhaust designs to name a few. But that's besides the main point.

    While most of us appreciate its a SDE and very capable engine for its size, the power delivery at the lower gears esp. the way driveability is affected is something that has always been a sour point or experience for many. We certainly cannot and should not write it off.

    Its bad, it could be tiring many a times; it could take the trill out of driving in medium to heavy traffic esp. sudden traffic that involves braking and lane changing and reacceleration. I say you keep the Tjet aside for a year and then you may appreciate the point. :)
    prabhjot likes this.
  10. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    @asimpleson

    Yes, no doubt it's geared too short in 1 and 2 (mjd) for brisk-ish getaways (mjd Punto), but I am guessing it's been done that way to (a) mask turbolag and enhance fuel efficiency by 'forcing' an early upshift, speed permitting (b) on the assumption that if you're in plodding traffic even short early-gearing is fine, since you're not going to be getting anywhere (eg, the rear bumper of the guy ahead of you) in any hurry! Might as well move slowly in second since you're going have to end up there or in first in any case just as soon as you have to brake and slow down/stop again shortly due to sluggish/static traffic. ;-)

    I have not driven the 2014/2015 Linea mjd or the Avventura 90: but from ownership reports here it seems matters have improved somewhat as far as bottom-end response goes over the pre-facelift and esp the early mjd Linea-s and 90 hp Punto-s, with the same gearbox?

    Perhaps @PradeepM could opine better and more accurately on the matter? Or @Vidhyashankar Kannan , since he has sampled the mjd 90 Punto Evo as well ?

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