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VW faces billions of $$ in fines for cheating in tests

Discussion in 'Non FIAT Cars and two wheelers' started by selwyn.a, Sep 21, 2015.

  1. KKAUL

    KKAUL Amatore

    Messages:
    204
    delhi
    Grande Punto 1.3
    I respect your concern but I will tell you my just few days back experience.
    My car is around 57 K on Odo.Went to a PUC shop who was performing test on a liva on 60K.
    Noticed that he made 10 pedal push as compared to 5 in earlier times. Again made 10 pedal push in a my car in in a different pattern (1 half followed immidiately with full push). after the test was done just out of curosity inquired what was the reading on earlier Liva and he said 16 and mine was 19.I immidiately told him it is impossible as I could smell CO from the exhaust pipe of the machine in case of LIva where as in my case I could not feel the smell ( FEEL is with the eyes not nose). He said you are absolutely true .He said your engine performance is much better than LIVA I asked him why.HE said did you noticed my push in both the case I said yes and he asked me the diff and I explained him. He said in 1 push he was not getting any reading in my car because the reading was much lower than the least count of the machine so gave 2 push to addup so the reading is cummulative of both.Then I realised the diff.
    Then I explained him what is wrong in Liva design and why it had higher reading and his looks i can't tell. He is now very open with me and shared a lot of details about the wrong doings with PUC which I can't write on an open forum but really astonishing facts.
    The reason I wrote this is because 75 hp is undertuned and without changing any mechanicals to extort more power will be at cost of environment.Please spread this message to our mod community so that they respect our childres future otherwise we will have same fate as Mars.
    and sorry for spell errors as I did'nt had time to recheck
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2015
    prabhjot likes this.
  2. Tornado

    Tornado Superiore

    Messages:
    677
    Driver's seat.
    Western Maharashtra
    Avventura 1.3 90 HP
    Before mods could act it is the central government which needs to make BS 4 fuel available all over country so as to make children's future safe.
    Earlier government was buying fuel & 141$/barrel and still was selling with subsidy @68, 82 Rs.

    Now it's since inception of present government international(one & half year ) fuel prices have dropped down to 40 to 50 $/barrel, but government is neither passing the benefit of drop in prices to the citizens nor providing the BS 4 fuel pan India.

    With owners of BS 4 cars filling at bunks outside the limits of those 20 BS 4 fuel providing cities, I won't be surprised to find the catalytic converters of any premium brands going less efficient & harming environment.
    prabhjot likes this.
  3. KKAUL

    KKAUL Amatore

    Messages:
    204
    delhi
    Grande Punto 1.3
    by mods I was referring to modification community. I think you misunderstood me
  4. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    http://wardsauto.com/auto-makers/vw-emissions-scandal-echoes-gm-india-controversy

    Brazil has ALREADY fined VW 50 million dollars for their cheating. This in a country that does not see significant diesel sales in passenger cars at all!

    Here, VW (just the dirty tip of the iceberg as far as the Indian car manufacturers are concerned) has not even been even minimally investigated: where are the tests of VW's co2 and fuel efficiency+performance claims in the real world?

    Like GM, they will get away near-scott free here, since the government (with the passive or active support of the car buying middle and upper classes) gives not do paisa for questions of pollution, air quality or product 'quality' truthfulness.

    This when this really should be the occassion for a wide ranging re-checking and re-certification (or not) of co2, NOx, spm as well as fuel efficiency AND power/performance figures which are (likely to be) getting gamed if not through outright cheating then through outright lying-via-marketing by

    MOST if not all car firms in India.

    And that is EVEN by the minimal or sometimes non-existent 'standards' here in the first place.

    Nevermind the task of the essential, drastic toughening of recall, engineering specification, fuel quality and emissions (esp spm from diesels) standards, as well as matters of taxation of both fuel and the cars themselves, nevermind the truly urgent, emergency-like need for a ramped up public transport policy and funding. Or the price being paid by everyone, esp pedestrians, cyclists, motorcyclists, and children, and our cities for the state-sponsored automotive industry and its buyers.

    Ah well, 'yeh hai India meri jaan', i suppose. Dirty air, hypocrisy, confidence trickery and lawlessness notwithstanding.
  5. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    http://wardsauto.com/vw-says-co2-cheats-affect-more-petrol-engines-previously-disclosed

    Guess what folks, VW has cheated/lied (rather than just 'gamed' the tests) about CO2 and therefore fuel efficiency too, but on petrols...and our very own TSi 1.2 (Polo 'GT', Vento) and 1.4 tsi (Octavia, jetta) are very much on the list.:facepalm:

    Bears Indian investigation and possible prosecution, possibly being generalized to all petrol engined Indian cars/brands, yes? Of course not!:banghead:
  6. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    The National Green Tribunal is looking into a petition demanding the banning of all VW group diesel vehicles, investigations, recalls and fines.

    Only AFTER that, and ONLY after publicly announcing an ostensible though laughably low-cost and easy 'fix' in Europe let alone the US did VW bother to announce a recall on the 350000+ diesels the group, including Skoda and Audi, has sold here, all bearing the cheat software.

    Still NO sign of government action: no forcing of recalls, no fines, no announcements of beyond-vw investigations to investigate not just cheating but other duplicity (e.g., gaming of the emissions test) in anything but vague terms, where are the compulsory imposition of spm-traps in future diesel engines, where is the announcement of past-profit-recovery from car firms for EXCESSIVE deviations in-the-real-world from even-if-honest-not gamed-or-cheated emissions by diesels of all firms.

    VW must in fact be made to pay multiple large fines with an immediate stop-sale of all their diesel cars. (a) for potentially cheating via specific cheat device, which is as bad as (b) for actual cheating/gaming (c) for abuse of trust of customers (d) for systematically misleading and tendentious advertising PLUS (e) profit-recovery for all the extra emissions (not only NOx but also CO2 and spm, they've doctored even the latter figures in europe and the us, including on the 1.2 Tsi petrol used on the Polo and Vento in india) caused for financial gain, those financial gains must be extracted back from them at some rate.

    Who is to say this 'recall' fix they're saying costs little and can be done in half-an-hour and moreover, they're claiming does not affect either performance or fuel efficiency/CO2 emissions is even hald-edequately-true? SINCE: if it were so easy and inexpensive, why did VW, Skoda and Audi cheat in the first place via the cheat device software?

    With the Paris Climate conference on the minister has 'announced' bs5 and bs6 standards to be met by refineries and car firms earlier than earlier stated. However, there is HUGE pushback from the public and private sector refiners let alone the car firms.

    Meanwhile, no-one gives a damn, really, among the car buying and owning public, at least not in delhi which as I type is covered in a fog-thick low-lying smog, with the real winter not even here yet. Delhi, despite being the greenest megalopolis in the world is also the near-dirtiest. A lot of that is due to private passenger vehicles, and cannot be palmed-off to commercial truck operators and he like: a direct result of it having more private cars especially diesel ones than the next 5 biggest-cities combined.

    This is why I hope the NGT passes a penal and draconian judgment to the petition by a female delhi school teacher, apparently. The less easily-implementable and 'idealistic' the better: that'll get the real so-called 'authorities' to act meaningfully rather than just 'appear' to act while reproducing and helping refiners, petrol pump owners, and car firms and buyers carry-on in the status quo obliviousness to the disastrous air-quality consequences of current policies that are concerned it seems ONLY to (a) keep building roads, highways and flyovers so that contractors are happy (b) keep subsidising the toxicity of the car industry (c) keep helping the public that buys and owns cars to keep their consumerist aspirationality intact even as they free ride by polluting away.

    It is the government and the courts' job, after all to get these 3 entities to 'pay for' under the polluter-pays principle for all the 'extra' pollution they've already caused: i.e., there needs to be retrospective fines/carbon+emissions taxes too, not just the always deferred distantly prospective action (bs6 fuels etc in 2020).

    The simplest way is to devise a formula by which all car firms return say half of all their profits from PAST sales of dirty diesels, EVEN if these were not cheated or indeed gamed 'test-ed' engines, in proportion to (a) sales volumes and (b) respective deviations in the real world from the b3/4 standard test results.

    And for the future: it'll be essential and unavoidable to ensure not just cleaner fuel and strictly conforming engines BUT a necessarily big increase in pollution taxes of different types and degrees (CO2, NOx, spm, and fuel efficiency), not mere customs and excise duties+road+municipal parking taxes. On a national rather than state or municipal basis. Cars must be taxed on a GST+carbon+emissions basis, not only via gst and/or local road taxes.

    The car-buying and owning classes cannot claim the 'but public transport is bad' excuse. Public transport will improve further ONLY when they, the educated and assertive aspiring-impatient ones, increasingly get off this ridiculous "a car +roads+bypasses+flyovers+expressways is my birth right and i shall have it' approach. Since the vast vast majority of us will not do it voluntarily, we will have to forced as well as 'incentivized' to by some or all of the measures suggested above?

    VIKAS, the government must understand surely cannot mean filthy air, clogged roads, radical urban sprawl and inadequate public transport, cannot mean 'car manufacture and sales = development'.

    The governments of India, national, state and urban are too/extra-closely associated with car companies and road-highway 'developers' and contracters, petrol pump licensees, etc, one fears. The government also gets far too much a fraction of its tax revenue from fuel taxes, hence has a deep structural dependency for its own finances on ever increasing amounts of total fuel consumption, hence the absurd and abusive catering and pandering to the car firms and the car buying classes.
  7. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    Kudos to the Delhi state government for finally taking strong action on the air pollution and emissions front in delhi, i.e., in what is clearly, emphatically an 'emergency' situation.

    Kudos to the CM for trying to manage expectations and to manage the backlash, which is huge, but only among lazy, fat car-owners of whom there are far too many in Dilli. ;-) Not to mention the near-majority if not-majority that are diesel owners.

    NO kudos to the union government and the minister for road transport who are, clearly, exclusively concerned, it is clear, with 'supporting' the car industry and adjacent lobbies. BS6 in 2021, no madating of spm and NOx traps/treatments....sheesh! Even as the swach-taa of bhaarat is being aimed for....on the vanishing horizon, if that, and if delhi's roads and air are anything to go by.

    BUT even the ballsy and frank/blunt/canny delhi cm is too afraid of the car-owners' lobby to do the obvious, necessary and unavoidable thing: ban diesel private passenger vehicles in Delhi, and from entering delhi. i.e., A permanent stop-sales of diesels in this city and its environs, and a (government-subsidised/incentivised/mandated and managed?) short (say: a year or maybe two) window in which all current diesel owners must sell or scrap their cars, and switch to either petrols, or 2-wheelers or, better still, to UBER+metro+buses+ElectricAutos etc, many more of which will be made available by the relatively-commited delhi government.

    Also raise the ridiculously low delhi road, parking, congestion, urban sprawl, pollution, and petrol and esp diesel 'carbon taxes'. EVEN this pioneering and intelligent delhi CM of a priveleged city-state has no political room to do the obvious and the necessary, as all urban planning and environment experts here and abroad advocate and agree-on!

    Meanwhile, the VW group says its Indian diesels both have and don't have the cheat software installed! Even though VW hq has already said that all of this engine family have the cheat device installed. And are therefore doing a, get this, 'voluntary' recall. ;-) They are likely the dirtiest diesels sold in india in any case, alongwith Toyota's pre-historic ones, so. No word, either, on any testing of their petrols, esp the famous 1.2 TSi-s, which too, they have admitted have fudged co2 and fuel efficiency numbers (in europe and the usa).

    ARAI is 'going to....' retest all cars, we are told. Sure, BUT: that is useless unless the motor vehicles act is drastically amended, not to say also enforced! VW can be, by law, fined a maximum of a mere Rs.1000 per car sold, which is like small change or 'chillar' as we say here. How many Vento-s, rapids and Polo-s and Audi-s have they sold here nearly entirely on the basis of their professedly good diesel engines, and at what price? A Rs 1000 fine is nothing. It won't even deter them in the future, let alone Maruti, Hyundai, Mahindra, Tata.

    And who is going to penalize them for false and grossly misleading/dishonest advertizing about 'Das Auto' and 'German Engineering' etc?

    It is as if India is NOT one of the the world's very biggest diesel passenger-car markets. And with the world's dirtiest city and other pollution, more or less.

    Ah well. At least the local government is pushing against this entrenched middle-class-opinion-and-sponsorship grain. It is a beginning: hope the whole effort, such as it is, does not get sabotaged, like the previous delhi govt's long-term BRT, exclusive bus-lane, scheme was.
  8. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmu...illion-strategy-for-gaming-the-clean-air-act/

    This is how FCA under Marchionne openly and in a declared and even-joked-about-way complied with US epa emissions AND 'cafe' fuel efficiency standards, EVEN when it was for historical reasons struggling to financially meet those exorbitant targets, or rather will struggle in the decade to-come. i.e., they 'gamed' the system in fair, legal and open ways: NO cheating, NO political manipulations. And zeroed-in on other ways (rather than VW's failed diesel engine technology) to improve efficiency and emissions, better ac refrigerants, 8- and 9-speed transmissions across the board, multiair infinitely variable valve timing, variable-valve-lift, etc. With many more light-weighting uses of assorted composites in the Alfa-s and the related Dodges and Jeeps, also electric turbochargers etc

    Meanwhile in Europe, FCA is by a great distance the 'greenest' car company, as per current EU and national-regulatory stipulations, thanks mainly to its extensive deployment of cng-powered cars and esp utility vehicles, not to mention the use of cng-power in its logistics chain (recently they converted their entire fleet of logistics truck in the US to cheap and relatively-very-clean cng at a cost of 50million$), plus of course the preponderance of small, efficient and 'clean' mjd-s, and of course the twinair and multiair petrols.

    And meanwhile in India: STILL no special-penalties or indeed government-pursued court cases agaist it, let alone the necessary temporary-ban on VW group vehicles. Openly declared opposition by the road minister and his main baabu to car and esp diesel-engine restrictions, which the latter says are "not necessary" since the central government will over the next year (sic) announce 'measures' that will solve the problem and not require any regulation of car companies, their engines, and car-ownership+use in our cities. NO word on implementing euro6/bs6 fuel standards at refineries (now being in fact the perfect time to do so, since global oil prices are set to remain SO low?). NO investigation of the dominant firms (Maruti and esp Hyundai and Mahindra) for highly-likely systematic manipulation of OFFICIAL fuel efficiency and emissions ARAI figures.

    Hyundai's 1.4 and 1.6 diesels have higher fuel efficiency OFFICIAL arai numbers than say the 90hp mjd and YET have co2 emissions that are much worse. How can this be possible and allowed to pass? They claim their diesels peak torque comes in at 1500rpm, an outright and total falsehood. Not coincidentally, Hyundai, like Ford on their ecoboost engines, has been RECENTLY heavily-fined by nhtsa/epa in the US for......manipulating fuel efficiency and therefore co2 emissions figures on Hyundai-s and Kia-s in the US.

    Bechaaraa Kejriwaal thinks he can cut through this labyrinth of conspiracies of silence and indifference (and corruption) and implement the odd-even rule+3000 more buses+car pooling+cng-uber/olaetc-incentivization, clampdown on sales of diesels.... How foolish of him?

    We'll see: i look forward to the delhi police (not under the delhi state government) and the car-owning 'aam' public being much-less-than-cooperative, so that in a months' time it can be said "see? pollution has not come down! and there was so much 'chaos'. cars and diesels are not the problem, ban autorickshaws, and also fine or arrest all poor people/workers/nightwatchmen etc who light fires to warm themselves during delhi's brutally cold nights, etc"

    And the central government and the 'regulatory' bodies will apply new 'rules' which will (or not) be enforced over the next decade, so that....no difference is made! And yet the appearance of 'earnest and honest' public-interest action is pretended-by both the government AND the audience/'public'.

    Delhi has seen this happen before: mass cng-conversion of all public and commercial vehicles, plus the huge expansion of the metro, making NO difference whatsoever to either pollution or congestion/commuting times and speeds or road safety etc.

    Past, present and FUTURE polluters must 'pay' or be made to, if not financially then by a diversion away from their status-quo, preferred first-choice of action which is "Do nothing!! And ensure that the authorities do nothing either!" so that each one can carry on enjoying in self-defeat the cannot-look-beyond-one's nose doing-of-nothing-civic/coordinated.

    Sigh. But if his whole delhi government and supreme court initiative works even minimally well, or is allowed-to minimally,and sets an example for all other cities, and most importantly CREATES the political-cultural space for further breakthroughs against the dirty and dysfunctional status-quo....?!

    Hope, then: let us see. A very very important political, policy, legal, many-sidedly urbanist and most importantly 'cultural' experiment, this, by the Delhi government.
  9. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    The Central government minister has anounced to the press that VW indeed has cheat devices installed on their indian diesels. VW denies this. Meanwhile no stop-sale on VW diesels (even the 1.2 tsi petrol is self-confessedly 'OFF'-the rules in europe, has it been investigated?). No penalties, which should be for fraud not a mere few lakh rupees under the current motor vehicle act.

    Now if VW did not have a cheat device, then it means that the real-world performance of their AND other diesels in the country have an emissions-violations problem EVEN under bs4! Where is that promised' comparative investigation with other diesels?

    Which companies diesels are in how much emissions violation in which test cycle? How come? Where is the admission of guilt from the ARAI that it has, at best, been KNOWINGLY allowing certain diesels from certain companies to 'game' the fuel-efficiency AND emissions figures.

    More likely: much worse. i.e., corruption of one kind or another, one dgree or another, by both SOME car companies (my guess would be VW, Reanult-Nissan, Mahindra, Toyota, and Hyundai) in the ARAI.

    So: vw is pronounced guilty but there are no meaningfull punishments (which should be for FRAUD). Meanwhile they are allowed to go on selling those very supposedly cheater-diesels: where is the stop-sale?

    And bs6 standards which this government has spent 2 years trying to push as far out into the future as possible has now, as a PR-embarrasment recuperation exercize been pre-poned.....for 2021, with only the announcement having been made to the press. WHERE IS THE OFFICIAL NOTIFICATION?

    Meanwhile the oil companies are up in arms and are likely going to go to court to stay the order IF it even actually is enforced, and thereby delay the whole thing.

    i.e., NOTHING changes for anybody: carry on boys! Pretend to look sincere and busy and lawful and resposnsible. Till.....2021, or is that 2023? Sowhat if India has SOmany cities with the world's TOP 10, or Top 20 dirtiest-air cities......a large and in per-capita-terms DISPROPORTIONATELY attributable to the dirty diesels in private middle-class and elite vehicles.

    Ah well. Thanfully the delhi state government's re-starting the odd-even traffic scheme. It still does not have the gumption to ban new diesel sales and setup a phased ban on diesel non-commercial vehicles in delhi+ncr, since the great dilli so-called 'aam aadmi' middle class and above (when they are in fact deeply priveleged and constitute no more than 13-15% of dilli residents) can carry on as before.

    And we have not even begun to fund the huge rampup in public transport required in all our cities (the central government has cut JNURM, now renamed amrut, funding a lot over the last 2 years) or talk of congestion and road-lawlessness/security/safety. Related to BUT not at all reducible to the question of dirty fuel and dirty diesel engines.

    Meanwhile tens of thousands of crores for so-called 'stalled' highway projects are being spent, even though there is as yet little NEW work-on-the-ground, and more importantly the societal AND financial payoff for highways is abysmal compared to urban and district public transport and roads.

    We know why this skewed emphasis prevails, don't we, er let us call it Public-Private er 'partnerships'.....with contractors, almost all of whom are ...er....great, public-spirited 'infrastructure companies', so what if so many of them are near-bankrupt with unpaid-back-loans from the PUBLIC-sector banks. etc etc.
  10. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr

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