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VW faces billions of $$ in fines for cheating in tests

Discussion in 'Non FIAT Cars and two wheelers' started by selwyn.a, Sep 21, 2015.

  1. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,445
    delhi ncr
    http://www.autonews.com/article/201...-set-to-post-first-loss-in-more-than-15-years

    It is difficult to see VW getting out of this (say in 5 years' time) with a hit of less than, say, at a minimum, 12-15 billion euro-s. Since they're now at the mercy of the American judicial system with its class-action lawsuits from dealers, investors and owners, let alone severe regulatory fines, including for 'wire fraud' given their loud but false advertizing, all to be decided by juries known to give gratuitous financial 'awards': could in fact very easily be much worse!

    VW was, even before the current scandal broke, in trouble with (a) negligible profit margins on the vw brand (b) dwindling sales, marketshare, reputation and margins in china (c) a slow and bloated-cost new-model cycle (d) losses in Latin America, and in India, and near-absence ex-Audi in Asia-Pacific other than of course China where too now their star in dwindling fast.

    They'd be perhaps best advised, and this is a Fiat-fan joke/jibe, to accept a powertrain-sharing deal with FCA: they could give-up their now-disreputable diesel-emissions-cheater engines, use fca's diesels, big or small, ONLY, and fca could use say the dsg gearboxes and/or some of the smaller TSi engines.

    As VW cuts costs globally, could it ironically see a greater role for VW-Skoda-Audi India's plant(s), India as a low-cost base for exports of engines, transmissions as well as new-model cars and especially small suv-s? Like the use India is being put-to by Ford, and notably by Chevrolet who are quitting Thailand, Indonesia and Australia, as well as scaling-back in rising-cost Korea and say India will be its major global production centre for its smaller, cheaper, emerging-market models, and of course FCA with its powertrain exports and its JEEP export plan?
  2. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,445
    delhi ncr
    http://wardsauto.com/update-2-vw-shares-sink-again-scandal-takes-new-dimension

    VW has admitted to doctoring fue efficiency and co2 emissions figures too. And the US epa says its investigations show that vw uses 'cheat devices' on its 3.0 litre v6 diesels on Audi-s and Porsche-s too. Also, even the Tsi engines are said to be in severe emissions violation in the US and Europe.

    Meanwhile long after everyone else has acted and vw has itself confessed the Indian Transport Ministry has only yesterday issued a 'notice' to VW India. ARAI tests show that Indian vw+skoda diesels are in violation EVEN of India's bs3/4 level NOx emission cut-off, which are of course very very much lower than the cutoff inEurope (euro5/6) let alone the US. ARAI has not even tested for CO2 emissions+fuel efficiency cheating! The all-too obvious thing to do since NOx, CO2 and efficiency correlate strongly.

    It is as if the government is all too keen to ensure the VW sordidness does not lead to any wider opening up of the way ARAI has been gamed or worse by most/all firms when it comes to diesel as well as petrol emissions, fuel efficiency.

    I have not the slightest doubt that the biggest cheat, aside from mahindra, after VW+Skoda, is Hyundai: its claims for its diesels are, I have no doubt, lies, their emissions are worse, their fuel efficiency claims are wider-off-the-real-world-mark than that of others, their peak torque@rpm figures are plain-false etc.

    We therefore, as Fiat fans/owners, will get to see that the mjd is indeed the best and most honest small-diesel in india, still? But VW=Skoda-s have sold how many 'powerful yet fuel efficient' 1.5/1.6 diesels than FIAT has? Hyundai have sold how many 'refined' diesels more? Renault-Nissan have sold how many 8 valve diesels more? and so on.

    ARAI must retest, if necessary even stop-sales of diesels, all diesels from all firms, EVEN according to the lax standards currently specified, and the government must impose penalties on any firm, no matter how big or how much they are 'making'-in-india, that is found to have been, like VW+Skoda+Audi, gaming, let alone outright cheating, ARAI and the Indian public/marketplace.

    And then turn their attention to petrols too. CO2, NOx, spm and fuel efficiency must be investigated TOGETHER.
  3. Tornado

    Tornado Superiore

    Messages:
    677
    Driver's seat.
    Western Maharashtra
    Avventura 1.3 90 HP
    Does this recall applies to Indian Skoda Rapid diesel?
  4. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,445
    delhi ncr
    They've only been given a notice. no recall, yet. Yes, of course, it applies to the Skoda rapid diesel: all their (indian) diesels have this cheating going on, even the audi a4 and a6 and porsche 3litre v6 one.

    @Tornado
    Tornado likes this.
  5. Tornado

    Tornado Superiore

    Messages:
    677
    Driver's seat.
    Western Maharashtra
    Avventura 1.3 90 HP
    But since India has got installed a "Achhe din" software, we have only 20 odd cities providing BS 4 fuel, forget about Euro 5 & 6 norms, is this cheating software really required to defy pollution norms in India?
    prabhjot likes this.
  6. nkrishnap

    nkrishnap Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    1,900
    Bangalore
    Bangalore
    Linea 1.3
    How did you decide that the MJD emissions are complying to the norms. This emission scandal is just the trigger needed for all manufacturers to pull up their socks regarding the emissions and for authorities to bring in real life tests than tests under ideal condition. It is highly immature to conclude something before its there in black and white, so hold on to your horses until the jury is out.

    I would not be surprised if the MJD too is on higher emission list.

    All manufacturers are to be included and no manufacturer should be let off due to lobbying (bribing).
    prabhjot likes this.
  7. pra.agar

    pra.agar Regolare

    Messages:
    350
    Bangalore
    I would say that's just the start. EPA will test all new diesel cars on actual roads from now on.

    But I think VM is just going for Masters Degree in Scandals and Manipulating the results. Another Scandal by VM.
  8. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,445
    delhi ncr
    @nkrishnap

    What i do base the mjd claims on are the co2 emissions data (real world) from Auto Bild india's test drive cycle of the Punto and Avventura versus their competitors: the mjd has the lowest co2 emissions than either the ford tdci, the toyota liva/etios diesel, the hyundai diesel and, needless to say, the VW diesels.

    Now, since NOx is at issue too, just as SPM ought to be but is not afaik, ARAI must re-test and re-certify(or not) ALL diesels, especially the largest-prevalance one (the mjd) according to the current BS3/4 (=euro3 if am not wrong?) and fine heavily the firms that are violating current norms, however lax, by too-wide a margin. In fact the mjd must be singled out for special testing across the many models, esp Maruti-s, it is found on.

    A stop-sale on egregious non-conforming diesel models is the minimum punishment, alongwith fines. The polluter must pay, the firms that have profited from large-deviant diesels must handover all/a large part of their profits from sales of such models. Even as autocompanies are also given a roadmap (say by 2018) to switch to BS5 or even 6.

    I personally have little hope/trust this administration and this minister will pursue this obvious and necessary legal responsibility. The opposite, in fact: they will do their best to enable the continuation of systematic gaming+cheating+pollution-spewing that has been going on. "Chalta Hai, na?!" Of course there will be the appearance of reform and regulatory-tightening/enforecemnt but little or even NOTHING much-out-of-step with the wishes of the auto industry and car-owner/buying lobby will be attempted with any degree of seriousness or honesty. Let us see.

    The kid-gloves treatment by the ministry, the minister and ARAI of even self-confessed cheating and obviously-in-India 'feku' VW is a bad joke, given the fact that india's the world's biggest (dirty)diesel market, and the air-quality emergency that has been and is prevailing in most large indian cities, especially Delhi ncr.
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2015
  9. Anup

    Anup Regolare

    Messages:
    303
    Bangalore
    Bangalore
    Grande Punto 1.3
    Well frankly speaking what VW did globally is a bad, however what I feel is Indian Govt acting here seems to be taking an opportunity (or rather chance pay dance)
    The main reason is the poor infrastructure provided by Govt regarding BSIV norms fuel. Until we have fewer middle men and cut down on Govt interventions and give more margins to dealers we will never achieve a decent quality fuel at retail.
    I personally have to drive 7.5 kms to fill fuel for my cars for a better quality of fuel and even though I've got a IOCL pump just half a kilometer far.
    I can say this right and with confidence that even a E350 cdi or a M530 d will just leaves a trail of black smoke if pushed hard not to blame there emission standards but because of kerosene and other solvent mixed diesel.
    prabhjot likes this.
  10. Tornado

    Tornado Superiore

    Messages:
    677
    Driver's seat.
    Western Maharashtra
    Avventura 1.3 90 HP
    After discussing the VW cheating software, one of my VW car owner friend said that in the world you can't believe anyone.
    I said, " yes, barring fiat".

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