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VW faces billions of $$ in fines for cheating in tests

Discussion in 'Non FIAT Cars and two wheelers' started by selwyn.a, Sep 21, 2015.

  1. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,444
    delhi ncr
    @limraj The 1.5 is the same as the 1.6diesel, with slightly different stroke etc.

    We already have the good minister Gadkari declaring there's no need to check Indian VW diesels for INDIAN emissions violations/cheating. And the ARAI has also claimed VW passed the test, such as it was, and that they have not been 'asked' by the government to retest on a random, and esp onroad/realworld basis.

    They are not even doing the obvious and necessary thing as regulators: this scandal is PRECISELY about a gaming of the emissions regime. Its logic and motive applies even to India, since performance and mileage is mostly inversely proportional to emissions quality (esp of NOx).

    If they fake-adhered to the US emissions regime, they could've fake adhered, for the performance and mileage benefits, to the vastly lower Indian one as well. And if Nox emissions are 10 to 40 TIMES greater than the strict US number, surely that amounts to an emissions-failure EVEN by the puny Indian standard?

    AND: we are the world's biggest diesel engine market. It is saddening that Indian regulators and the minister are indifferent to emissions and other possible regulations (such as higher taxes for high SPM), EVEN in the face of emphatic evidence of ARAI being gamed across the board on its different, derived-from-Europe but 10-20 year-old regulations.
  2. KKAUL

    KKAUL Amatore

    Messages:
    204
    delhi
    Grande Punto 1.3
    If murder charges were too be filed then maybe our beloved top selling brand will lead the Que with its astounding model SW and DZ.Live lost might = uncountable due to their superb braking distance close to 100 mtrs on full load.
    prabhjot likes this.
  3. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,444
    delhi ncr
    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34345210

    This report from the BBC says that the German Transport Minister himself claims that VW has admitted to using similar-to-the-US 'cheating device' to game the European emissions testing regime too, one that is much less stringent in its standards and one that has repeatedly been criticised for having a lax, un-real-world testing procedure.

    The 1.6 VW diesel from which the Indian 1.5 too is derived is explicitly mentioned as being an engine that has seen emissions test 'cheating' by VW in Europe.

    If so: it is quite 'beyond reasonable doubt' that a similar gaming/cheating of the Indian bsIII norms have been done too, for the marketable mileage and power gains that accrue by diluting/ignoring emissions quality.

    VW India (+Audi+Skoda) must be investigated in India too immediately, before this blows over and is forgotten by the car-public/news-media.

    However, it seems that even though and if no other car makers have used such 'cheating devices' in Europe, their diesels too are apparently way out of range in real-world-conditions, though not nearly as much as VW/Audi's. Wider investigations are resulting in Germany at least, against all carmakers.

    It is also good longterm PR and political-management strategy on the part of the German government to diversify/de-centre the 'blame' across as many diesel engines from as many carmakers as possible, in order to enable the VW brand to survive this appaling scandal.

    This MAY, could very easily, be a very very costly affair for all the European car brands, including BMW, Mercedes, OPEL/GM, Renault, Ford, PSA, and of course Fiat/AlfaRomeo/FCA etc, if the result is, as seems likely, a regulatory, tax-law and a public-opinion backlash against current diesel engines in general from all manufacturers.
  4. Sam

    Sam Amatore

    Messages:
    168
    Mumbai
    Oh no! VW's "Trade Secret" was leaked. Don't know who all and how many such Secrets exists.
  5. acechip

    acechip Superiore

    OTOH, if the other car makers come out clean, the VW is left blackfaced, literally. Expect no sympathies for VW from its competitors (including BMW/MB). That will mean VW sells engines which, if controlled by emission checks, will have extremely poor performance. Basic technological setback. Its like saying that around 2 decades ago, the Yezdi Roadking was powerful because it was allowed to pollute.
    prabhjot likes this.
  6. limraj

    limraj Superiore

    Messages:
    914
    Trivandrum
    Linea 1.3
  7. acechip

    acechip Superiore

    I will be surprised to hear if VW fails emission checks set by ARAI. I believe the level of checks required by US and particularly the state of California are slightly more advanced than even the European tests, which are far more advanced than the current mandate by India (BS-4). The only thing that might happen is that VW's premiumness will be tarnished somewhat in the Indian market. Kind of " woh dekho Volkswagen jaa rahi hai" (harking back to Andaz Apna Apna movie:yuck:)
    I dont recollect seeing the "Respect for VW Polo " ad on TV recently.
  8. bibin

    bibin Regolare

    Messages:
    297
    kochi
    How many cars from vw stable in india are affected?

    vw, skoda, audi?
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
  9. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,444
    delhi ncr
    http://europe.autonews.com/article/...-devices-to-cheat-emissions-tests-report-says

    Is the ARAI doing what it has ostensibly been ordered to in the VW case, or was that order just an 'aupcharikta', as they say?

    India is the world's largest diesel market, after Europe.
    All VW group diesels in India, including Skoda-s and Audi-s have the cheat software installed.
    By cheating, significant gains in power AND fuel efficiency result.
    There is likely a payoff to cheating even given our paltry emissions standards.

    One suspects the government will 'sweep it under the carpet', since it may open a 'pandora's box' of revelations about how many of the most popular car brands in india have been gaming-to-the-point-of-cheating/illegality/fraud ARAI on both emissions, and the closely related question of fuel efficiency figures. Make in India 'PRachaar campaign' must not be affected, surely! (apologies for using the tv sensationalist news cliches)

    PS: the figures I have seen from AutoBild tests in India show the Fiat mjd to be the cleanest diesel engine in the Indian market by a distance, albeit numbers available are only for CO2 and not for spm or NOx
  10. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,444
    delhi ncr
    The Brazilian government is likely, reports in the Brazilian press indicate, to impose a fine of as much 50 million reals JUST for having the secret, cheat device-laden ECU, i.e., not even for actually violating Brazil's NOx emissions laws.

    Now, consider India. VW openly says all indian diesels belong to exactly the engine family all of whose members have the cheat software installed, which is in principle just an algorithm away from cheating EVEN on India's dubiously deficient emissions standards.

    And yet. No word, no fine, indeed one suspects no real investigation of VW/Audi/Skoda's indian diesel engines either.

    Only in India, it seems, where precisely because we are the word's biggest diesel market (after the EU), in other words, precisely because we have the foulest spm and NOx etc urban air, we should not investigate and deploy penal action against diesel-emission cheaters, let alone take a serious look at the whole, ridiculous pandering to the diesel engine-lobby (led by Tata, Mahindra and Maruti), the biggest constituent of which is the great aspirational indian middle classes, the lobby of lobbies, who are newly enthu about cars but

    want 'kitna deti hai' to be the nearly sole dominant criteria in car-buying and car-use-culture!

    The rest of the public and indeed anyone who, for instance, has to suffer from endemic and chronic lung and eye un-ease and dis-ease, in for example toxic-diesel-fumed Dilli-NCR, has to suffer this indulgence towards diesel engine car manufacturers, and owners.

    What is wrong with us as a public: Delhi last winter was in a hellish smog-emergency, so much for swachha bhaarat, and now the VW revelation (the proverbial tip of the dirty sooty iceberg), and

    we have no discussion, no argumentation, not even any ritualised hand-wringing and breast-beating, let alone action.

    I like cars and bikes as much as anyone else, and FIAT even makes most of its money in India via diesel engine provision, but something, or rather A LOT, needs doing, no, na?

    Starting with a penal fine on VW, a retrospective fine on diesel car, truck and tractor manufacturers' profits under the polluter pays principle (easy to enforce, and to be funneled into arai as well as to municipal/urban public transport), if any, a complete ban on any new diesel engine private car sales in or around bigger cities and the adoption ASAP of euro6 standards for CO2, spm and NOx, which is to say within a year or at most 2.

    http://www.business-standard.com/ar...rain-who-can-touch-diesel-115102500685_1.html

    To talk endlessly in ads of swacchh bhaarat abhiyaan and do nothing about the catastrophic-for-our-cities pandering to the 'diesel lobby' is

    to run with the hares and hunt with the hounds: NOT what a good, honest shikaari of public 'bads' does. Not at all. State-sponsored urban toxicification is what we have right now: 'free-riding', pun intended, plain and simple by diesel manufacturers and especially private-vehicle-owners.

    Forget the US and Europe, even China is acting along these lines evermore strongly, even if still pandering to the car manufacturer cum buyers lobbies. Why must we repeat all the historic errors and mis-understandings of what 'development' and urbanism means that these 'more developmentally evolved' countries have made and suffered and are recovering-from?
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2015

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