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Timing adjustment in MJD

Discussion in 'Engine Compartment' started by Sat-Chit-ananda, Oct 28, 2013.

  1. vIjAy_kHaSa

    vIjAy_kHaSa Esperto

    Messages:
    1,353
    Panchkula
    There was hardly any play after installing new timing kit max 1-2 mm when I tried to push it a little on the right side above the timing chain guide see the image but the first chain that was removed at 66k kms was having about cm of play and second one was too having some play but not that much.

    These plays are just approx and I have not measured them with special instruments. This is the play that my eye could feel it can be less or more also.

    DSC_0430.jpg
    1 person likes this.
  2. SoumenPaul

    SoumenPaul Regolare

    Messages:
    325
    Bangalore
    After adjustment and after driving around 50 km my observations :-

    1) Engine idling sound has reduced , excatly the sound I feel it should be.
    2) Pickup is considerably better in lower gear, no need to downshift to 1st after slowing down for a speed breaker/pot holes etc.
    3) While driving, pressing the clutch making the engine noise less immediately which was not the case earlier (it will take little time).
    engine harshness is much lesser.
    4) Today came to office same route (20 km) City drive, same speed (23 km/hr avg), total time (50 min), as I drive in the same strech always, I know the different permutaion/combination of speed , extract best mileage in city etc.

    Before TChain Replacment - 15 km/l
    After TChain Repacement - 14 km/
    After Some adjustment by Harish - 17 km/l

    I have to test the highway behaviour now.
    May be coming weekend.

    Many thanks to Sat and Harish (Pride Cars).C

    Cheers to TEAMFIAT , without which I would have been still hitting my head on FAS walls !!!

    The Air Intake Manifold has lots of deposits (intercooler,EGR already cleaned by FAS they did not do the Manifold),
    which I need to clean next, along with change to Delvac1.
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
    1 person likes this.
  3. Soumen,

    Good to see a positive post after seeing some negative posts doubting very core information thread intended to provide.

    Actually every time I visit an TASS/FASS and come back to Harish to get what I wanted, my respect and trust is towards this gentlemen is increasing with every such incident.
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
  4. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    2,123
    Pune
    Hey Sat Chit Ananda and others, you are misinterpreting what i am trying to say here. What Vijay Khasa mentioned is very much right and standard procedure to adjust the timing correcty. This is standard procedure adapted in FASS, TASS and MASS.

    All the tools mentioned in the document too are present with almost all garages who do engine work.

    What i am saying is that the timing can be adjusted and set correctly using the mentioned procedure. If the procedure is followed correctly and has to be followed correctly and precisely to achieve perfect timing and a perfect operation of the engine. The cam profile defines the valve operation , crank defines position of the piston TDC BDC etc and setting the harmony between these 2 are done by timing setting.

    So there is just a perfect setting, nothing like adjusting for mileage or performance. The timing when set correctly will give optimal engine performance in harmony with the ECU maps. Any deviation from not setting it as per procedure is nothing but doing wrong things.

    Now coming to the timing chain- yes it developes slackness. To overcome that we have a hydraulic tensioner. But the tensioner does have limitations. The lateral movement is just few mm and timing chain slackness beyond that cant be arrested and is considered beyond standard limits and one needs to change the chain.

    If you are retarding or advancing timings by changing the cam angle you are achieving nothing but deviation from standard engine specification. A lot of R$D goes into designing perfect cam angles wrt the piston position in combustion chamber , the amount if valve lift, valve overlap etc. By doing your own R$D without even knowing the theory of all this is just inviting trouble to the engine.

    - - - Merged Post - - -

    I think you should stop thinking that other posts are negative. There is nothing such as postive or negative in this thread. its just a discussion and point of view of each other. If at all you accept the above with open mind we all would learn good things in a constructive way
    3 people like this.
  5. Italia,

    First you said mechanic is misleading me, not you are saying there is only perfect timing.
    I never said change of timing is for mileage or power , i only wrote about pros and cons of advanced vs retarded timing for you which you claimed it can not be adjusted in your post.

    I very well understand the pros and cons of timing adjustment it ts listed in the very first post, other than that there is no ghost that would come out of these settings.
    I have visited FASS with request to adjust the timing properly but after two days of effort nothing came out of it until Harish set it right yes I mean it is set to neither advanced or retard.I am going to set to slightly advanced after few thousand kms as it will reduce EGT.

    If you are concerned about changes to such precision things which i very much respect, i should not be seeing a remap thread from you.what ever you wrote for timing also applies for remap too. That thread is sticky thread!!!
    If you know what can happen with advanced timing or retard other than what is written in the forum please write them in black and white instead of saying something so vague as wrong things and try to shoe away me.
    If this forum is not for enthusiasts please let us know we can go to some other forum.

    In the process I also learnt how to identify the advanced/retard timing in the MJD while driving the car. There was no thread on this topic so created one.
    If you would like you can go and delete the thread.I have shown lot of humility and respect while replying Mod's post considering your role in the forum.
    But just being a mod doesn't mean no one else knows about FIAT or automobiles in general.
  6. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    2,123
    Pune
    Why are you going overboard and getting so offensive. I clearly said if mechanic is saying that he will set the timing for mileage or power or whatever he is misleading you. I still say that because there is nothing such as altering the timing for the above said things. And this is inline with your pros and cons about Retarding or Advancing the timings mechanically.

    It is strange that FASS at your place is so incompetant that they cant do a simple fool-proof job of setting the timing. You need to write to Fiat about this.

    I dont know why are you brining the remap thread into this? Its just not about precision sir, its trying to draw a clear line between settings things mechically and electronically.

    Please try to understand that there is no feedback or closed loop when you change the timing mechanically thru adjustment of cam. When done on ECU its closed loop with feedback.

    Who made that thread sticky i really dont know, but i never expected that on the thread.

    Why should one delete your thread. You started a topic. You have your opinion and we have ours. This is a discussion. You feel it can be adjusted and i think otherwise. Why are you feeling i tried to shoe you away. Come one man, i know you since ages and we have always been into discussion.

    Well you are the best judge of this forum. If you feel you will find a forum in this world where you post something and people wont cross question or will not discuss what you say then you are free to do whatever you want.

    Try to go back and check my role as a mod. Have you ever seen me moderating or deleting posts? Dont consider me as mod. Show no humility or respect if you are doing so just becuase i am a mod. I dont expect that. I am on my own,individual and post only what i know.

    I am surprised to see such a post from you. Never mind, we can continue the discussion on timing on MJD without personal drifts.
    5 people like this.
  7. Personal attack on me happened by some one whom I wish to ignore in future, i just vent it out on you, sorry, apologies if I have hurt you.
    I am just leaving that here, I too was in your surprise boat when i saw such a post from that gentleman.

    Okay coming back to the topic, Soumen's car was having a retarded timing and Harish adjusted it to slightly off the center towards clockwise turn.You see the result in his post.

    Okay, I think you did not get the flange thing once you lock the cam and crank and remove flange the cam become slightly free to rotate
    Look at the picture above angle is marked in arrow symbol, flange holds the crank pulley based on how much you move the cam bolt either to clock wise or anti clock wise(Contd)
    new_chain.jpg

    Change of Cam anagle

    old_chain.jpg
    Decides when the valves will be open it would alter the valve opening from either when the piston is too low or when the piston is up . in technical terms it is called TDC and BDC.Flange exactly sits in the middle of the crank pulley.
    You mentioned there is no feedback, which is not correct as the there crank position sensor and cam postilion sensor, these sensors ensure there is feed back on when to inject the first of five injections and helps in timing the rest of injections before valve closes.

    If the injection is done when the piston is going down from middle path what is factory set is called retarding and if the injection is done say 5 degrees before TDC or piston reaching top is is called advancing.I always get confused at this please pardon my ignorance.

    One is on their own warranty after doing this.Advancing the engine allows better mixture of fuel with incoming air to cylinder as against a retarded one where fuel doesn't get enough air( please see the cons of the retarded timing in the first page)

    ECU depends on the cam sensor to know when it to inject sure only upon opening of the valve.it would create create say 5 degrees of mismatch between crank and cam it would still work, as even ECU's depending on conditions known to auto correct/adjust timing but what we can do by playing with cam is much larger than what ECU could do.

    Timing adjustments can be done in any engine with in the mechanical limits posed by the construction of the engine,These days most of Mitsubishi/Honda even have cam lift meacnism to improve the volumetric efficiency along with reaping the benefits of the advancing timing. Suzuki,Toyota and Hyundai only relay on advancing the timing as against cam lifts.

    Mitsubishi calls it MIVIC engine Honda as Vtec(mechanical)/Ivtec( ecu controlled),Can our MJD do this? answer is No and yes no it can not be done on the fly like VVT engine but mechanically it can be adjusted to advance or retard.FIAT calls the similar stuff as multi-air technology.

    If the engine is too much retarded first valves and turbo will fry also mileage will be low, you will notice louder engine than before that was exact case with mine and Soumen's car( Please read this post he mentioned this specifically).

    Timing in petrol car is can be adjusted lot more precisely than a diesel due to lack of measuring tools on degree of advancement.May be some ECU scan can tell us how much.
    Getting this right at the first time may be difficult but after 10-15 kms drive one will know the change.

    if any one is interested I can help to take Video and get the feedback on it but again i am re-iterating it is done with your own risk.
    Please throw away the thoughts like timing can't be advanced or retarded, it is possible racing world was the first to use this before it became norm on street legal cars.

    There are even after market racing cams and titanium valves to take to the extreme but, i am not for such brutal methods to get little more juice out of the car.

    If you still think it is not possible to advance or retard,please let us all know why you think so.I have experienced what i wrote also have a a proof it works. It should not be like " I don't know=it is not possible".
    Mileage and power changes are implicit with timing changes.
    I am not referring to it explicitly , this topic is discussed to larger extent in TDIforums and Mercedes forums.
    If some one will on their own risk , I can get this done with Video to explain it better.i don't want open my car now as it has been done 4-5 times.
    On a lighter note,hopefully people who seem to be against my posts want to try and later click likes to my posts,mods they are missing dislike buttons!!
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013
    1 person likes this.
  8. SoumenPaul

    SoumenPaul Regolare

    Messages:
    325
    Bangalore
    My car is really flying and also drinking less !! Loving every bit of it, tried a city max mileage test today, Marathalli to EC Via OR Road 21km again 23km/h avg,
    this time 20kmpl !!! Normally my HU shows little less mileage from Full Tank method.
    1 person likes this.
  9. VVT , VVTi And VVTLi In Plain English

    Click on above link for better explanation than my post.

    - - - Merged Post - - -

    soumen,

    Slight advanced timing is one of the reason for it but also prevailing cold whether in Bangalore is also a factor. You can not expect the same results when temapratures is at 37-38 degress during hot summers.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013
  10. SoumenPaul

    SoumenPaul Regolare

    Messages:
    325
    Bangalore
    ^^ True. Nowadays I hardly need to put AC in the mornings/evenings, also I feel the air density matters for the engine.
    Before the adjustment I have to really work hard with my gears to keep moving without stalling, also used to rev my engine
    unnecessarily and wasting power and fuel. Now since engine has become much more responsive I drive leisurely and getting good mileage.
    So it's a chain of parameters which all falling in place now.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013
    1 person likes this.

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