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Discussion in 'Hangout' started by nk4FIAT, Feb 7, 2011.

  1. shams

    shams Esperto

    Messages:
    2,388
    Bangalore
    ^^surprised not seeing goa on either list
  2. ramjn

    ramjn Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    5,244
    Chennai
    Linea 1.3
    As per the report Goa was replaced by Haryana at No. 10 for 2014.
  3. ramjn

    ramjn Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    5,244
    Chennai
    Linea 1.3
  4. pdash

    pdash Regolare

    Messages:
    382
    Bangalore
    Mahadevapura
    Grande Punto 1.3
  5. vIjAy_kHaSa

    vIjAy_kHaSa Esperto

    Messages:
    1,353
    Panchkula
    Idiots anybody would have run over them.
  6. Raj_pol

    Raj_pol Regolare

    Messages:
    496
    Bangalore
    Punto Evo 1.3
    @Vidhyashankar Kannan Not necessarily true. The Grande Punto which I believe is the one we are using in India did score a 5* when tested (2005). However the latest results for FIAT are not that exceptional. Also the tests have changed since then and have become much more stringent. Safety is not just a strong build - includes a host of other factors and since the car has remained unchanged for so long I would assume the top version in India (2 airbags) would score a 3*.

    However, a Punto Emotion with 6 airbags would have a good possibility to reach 5 stars.

    http://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-...s=false&selectedDriverAssistanceTechnologies=
  7. Vidhyashankar Kannan

    Vidhyashankar Kannan Regolare

    Messages:
    271
    Hyderabad
    Hyderabad
    Avventura 1.3 90 HP
    Thank you @Raj_pol for the link and explanation. So 3 stars is good enough then for life saving purposes? Looks like Fiat ratings have slipped over the years. Anyway, the issue is not about safety now as tin cans sell much better. Even if the courts decide to come down hard on manufacturers, people will wait patiently till the cars are strengthened instead of buying what's available.
    prabhjot likes this.
  8. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,449
    delhi ncr
    The EuroNcap as well as other tests are arbitrary, and are made arbitrarily stricter, and more elaborate. There is little that is scientific about them. NCAP is a corrupt organization, and has a sordid history. The European one at least has EU and other regulatory involvement, by now, but the China, Asean, LatAm ones are pure market-making plays by NCAP.

    The High Court has erred grievously in sanctifying NCAP as the tests that truly count. But, to be fair to the judge and the petitioner, these are the only publicly availiable crash test results, else we've been getting fed Japanese+Korean lies, more or less, about lightness and advanced crumple zones design etc.

    In many circumstances good old mass+velocity,.... let alone build+strength of chassis+skin+crumple zone members are what count exclusively and airbags, even 10 of them, often even seatbelts, are useless. ABS/ESP+airbags come last, first MUST come adequate (i.e., intelligently rigid yet shock and torsion absorbing) build (of chassis as well as skin), weight, tyres, brakes, steerings, ALL relative to weight/size/engine power, only then do airbags etc come into the picture.

    GIVEN, that is, price and cost limitations in the marketplace. Otherwise we would all be forced to buy only Volvo-s, which is to say for most: no car at all.

    IMO, only Fiats, the Tata Zest+Bolt, and the Ford Ecosport/Fiesta (as well, possibly, the Polo/Vento) count as 'safe enough' in the low-cost/price Indian mass market.

    If you look at the EuroNcap criteria for Europe, and then adjust for Indian cost/price structures, it is clear that the Punto and Linea, and some Fords, are 5-star, losing out only due to the new overlap tests and the new high-cost standard safety equipment requirements. The S Cross is 5 star in any case, unlike the 500X which gets 4 i believe, only because the test requires all versions to have some piece of equipment, which the 500X offers only on some of the higher versions. Why is the 500X not 5-star too? or downgraded even further to 3 stars? Who decides these 'weights' of different safety parameters and why....hence the arbitrariness of these crash safety tests, especially since they completely beg the cost/price trade-off question altogether.

    In fact, all FCA vehicles, European or American, are 5 star 'top safety picks' (from Insurers' perspective) i believe (except for the Wrangler obviously, since it is an off road convertible), except for the latest new overlap tests, which the next-gen vehicles will address (at a higher price/cost).

    ALL the evidience availiable in India (short of actual crash tests of Indian versions) suggest that except for Fiat and Ford and possibly VW, everyone else has completely diluted their safety standards, none more so than the Japanese and the Korean: from brakes and steering systems to chassis and skin build quality. The new S Cross, though, might well be Maruti turning a new leaf, but then it costs 12-15 lakhs, no?

    This Assam high court order is, as usual with our judicial interventions: both very progressive, and yet stupid and arbitrary and selective in nature, based on illogical hills v/s plains, and small/low-eight v/s bigger/heavier, etc. Not to mention taking NCAP as a reliable testing organization, which it is not: it is a commercial body seeking to build a market for itself in emerging markets like ASEAN and India, and has severe conflicts of interest.

    It is for the government to openly and explicitly formulate new safety and OTHER regulations (for brakes, steering, tyres etc), including explicit, publicly explained and justified, price/cost trade-offs and compromises in those regulations. And to bypass NCAP in the process.

    i.e., It will NOT happen. The appearance will/might, but the substance won't, would be my guess at least.
  9. Vidhyashankar Kannan

    Vidhyashankar Kannan Regolare

    Messages:
    271
    Hyderabad
    Hyderabad
    Avventura 1.3 90 HP
    @prabhjot , today I felt that we in TFI are a group of ants belonging to one anthill in the vast Serengeti of gigantic animals. We keep looking out wondering why other animals don't see us but at the end of the day, we're just too small to be thought about.

    I took the family for a very short drive today evening of around 15 kms. We saw not less than 5 new Cretas on the road. So its not about the safety, not about the cost, not about the driveability, blah blah. A Creta is strictly a 5 seater front wheel drive car that is called an SUV. It really does not have anything significantly above a Fiat except a bloody lot of trims, bells and whistles. And it is 15 lakhs! So this clearly shows that people have money to spend on what they perceive to be a good brand. 15 lakhs is too expensive for a car like Creta in my humble opinion for excellent trims. But that's what the market wants and is actually willing to pay for it.

    Yes, your points above are valid. Even if NCAP is made mandatory in India, I can swear on the entire Indian population that it will be terribly corrupt. So corrupt that they will have all the power in their hands to doom a car brand in India with one sweep of their rating sword. And we all know who have the money to purchase their ratings. Of course, if they give an Alto a 5 star rating, it will look obviously out of place. But like everything else, these open secrets will be accepted.
  10. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,449
    delhi ncr
    @Vidhyashankar Kannan

    While we're OT (MODS, please delete if needed!):

    The Creta has initial-impact 'presence' and an 'impress', no doubt, speaking only visually: but that's enough to have people over-excited, GIVEN of course that's it's from a trusted and 'prestigious' brand in india like HY. I guess folks think it's worth 14-17 lakhs since it looks so much bigger (i.e., more expensive). It's as-if most of the 30000 folks who've booked it (or so HY's PR dept claims) feel it's good value ONLY for this visual-illusory reason!

    Some credit to their 'sense and feel' for what 'emerging aspirational market' tastes are like ('perfect' 'suv'-s with bling-shing), and for their sense of timing, though the Duster and Ecosport (as well, as a footnote, the Avventura) beat them to this small crossover space/segment?

    They got similarly excited over the Ecosport too (the same many-months long waiting lists), which not-coincidentally has near-identical "butch-square+oversized grill" design language (external spare tyre excepted).....and also its too-tall-for-its-track look: both these "suv"-s are top-heavy, and topple-very-very-likely, or so one suspects.

    A medium speed (let alone higher speed one) "Moose/Cow=wrong side driver-on-highway test", please Hyundai India, thank you kindly! NCAP, where are you now: where are your cow-evasion topple-crash tests, then? Assam High Court judge, sir.....? I'll take the Suzuki S Cross 1.3 or 1.6 mjd, thank you, at 13-15 lakhs!:p Though, really, the Avventura or the Duster remain the best by a distance, and visually even more, and subtly-originally, striking imo.

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