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TFI Official "Aftermarket" In Car Entertainment (ICE) upgrade guide v2

Discussion in 'In Car Entertainment' started by PaddleShifter, Apr 1, 2014.

  1. kunwar.g

    kunwar.g Superiore

    Grande Punto 1.3
    My bad for only posting the list of speakers only with price. I did capture the other information also. Attaching the same below

    In this case the below speaker meet requirement for components
    Polk DB6501
    Hetz ESK165.5
    Hetz DSK 165.3
    JBL GTO 649C

    In my previous vehicle about 6 years back I just went to the shop and got a Sony HU with Aux and 6*9 Co-axial fixed on rear parcel tray along with 4" co-axial on front dash. Both speakers of Blaupunkt. Had been quite satisfied with the performance till volume level of 20. Anything over that was not good.

    ScreenHunter_496 Oct. 11 13.11.jpg
  2. fiatcrazy

    fiatcrazy Amatore

    Grande Punto 1.2
    @kunwar.g :

    Can you please share this excel file or post by sorting according to RMS power ?

    Also consider the Infinity as requested earlier, the JBL & Kicker are from same source Harman but for SQ Infinity series specially Kappa ( with Amp ) , reference ( With HU ) is good & hopefully better than JBL GTO too in some manner.

    As earlier said each car having different profile so different inside reflections of sound image. ( can I ask you your earlier car make ).
  3. kunwar.g

    kunwar.g Superiore

    Grande Punto 1.3
    My last car was Tata Indica Xeta. Current is 1.3MJD Grande Punto Active.
    Attaching the excel file

    Attached Files:

  4. kunwar.g

    kunwar.g Superiore

    Grande Punto 1.3
    Tried to find on google but could not get correct answer.

    Whats the real benefit of having set of speakers with higher continuous RMS ? In both scenario with and without an amp ?

    Reason for asking is I might not go for an amp now but later ( 3-4 months )

    A set of Hertz D series will cost approx 6500.00. The set of Hertz E series will cost 10000. Whats the benefit of the extra 3500.00 considering will not be hearing to continuous loud music. But will the higher rating mean that I can keep them supplied with more power from the amp resulting in much better and clearer sounding music ? If yes, might not mind spending the extra $$.
  5. fiatcrazy

    fiatcrazy Amatore

    Grande Punto 1.2
    The great sound is too simple :

    Looking at the Spectrum :
    The frequency from 25hz to 150hz should be little louder & flat till 20Khz. This makes the music, full of energy & soul mating.

    The reproduction of 400hz to 4Khz is very easy with normal speakers but below 400hz ( specially 25hz to 150hz ) & above 4khz to 20Khz ( Specially above 6Khz ), the production at this spectrum is little more difficult ( we can say it is science in term of electronics ( equalizer) & Art in terms of placement & selection of the component ).

    What we can easily control is electronics ( use of equalize, use of time shifting & many other sound processing technologies).

    Khali can lift the upto 1000kg so he can lift 100kg "easily". or he can lift 50Kg in one hand & 50Kg in another hand in decent manner. Same like we bought 75Hp machine that does not mean we always using its 75HP or 90hp. ( the difference between 75hp & 90hp is 75hp can go upto 172kms/hr max at nominal load & normal conditions. whereas I drove the 90hp Punto upto 210Kms/hr speed. or in terms of city traffic this linear rise in power with rpm helps to move quickly & precisely.

    The more a Speaker can handle the rms power means the same you experienced & shared in your last post >>>

    Technically : A speaker which can handle 100Wrms ( continuous) is rated at a certain frequency not in a wide spectrum,

    25Hz to 150Hz - 12" Subwoofer
    100Hz to 400Hz - 10" Subwoofer
    250Hz to 6Khz - 6.5" component
    4Khz to 20khz - Tweeters

    covering the whole spectrum using only 2 speakers - 6.5" & tweeters, it will be very difficult to produce sound near to ideal one.

    So the Electronics ( DSPs, equalizers, time-shifting etc etc) will be responsible to use these speakers with limitation of reproduction of sound in wow manner. so a 100Wrms rated component can produce frequency at 25hz to 8Khz @ 10 watts rms ( roughly for reference purposes only ).

    in a perfect system either speakers should be producing & covering the whole spectrum or can go this way like home audio system :
    ( but due to space limitations in cars, we use 6.5" components ):

    1. 15" Sub
    2. 12" Sub
    3. 10" Sub
    4. 8" Sub
    5. Different speakers to cover Vocal & Mid range
    6. Tweeters from 2Khz to 6Khz
    7. Tweeters for 4Khz to 8khz
    8. tweeters for 6Khz to 12khz ( e.g Dome with Metal cone )
    9. tweeters for 10khz to 20khz ( usually Piezo-electric )

    At the point of time when analog systems were in use ( today DSPs ) the cost of good electronics goes in millions, & cost of speakers was very low. now DSPs are much more cheaper ( 22nm nano technology) & speakers are going expensive ( due to compactness theory ).

    Thats the reason I was recommending to use a 12" sub & tweeters like this one, both covers the wide spectrum . ( ROUGH IDEAL SPECTRUM PIC attached. )

    Hope my try of covering & explaining things are not that hard as hard selecting these speakers.
    290-530_HR_0.jpg Audio Control House Curve 20Graph a (1).JPG
  6. kunwar.g

    kunwar.g Superiore

    Grande Punto 1.3
    Well, its nice explanation, but maybe I need to rephrase my question with your method.

    2 cars 75 bhp Punto and 90 bhp Punto. Surely the 90bhp can do more top speed, but say both driven at 90km/h, would the 90 bhp be smoother and refined driving experience? The answer I had got was not a difference worth the price difference.

    Now if you apply the same delima to my earlier question of investing in speakers with more capacity at higher cost. Here the cost difference is not in same ratio of the car, but still.
  7. PaddleShifter

    PaddleShifter Staff Member Janitor

    Grande Punto 1.3
    @kunwar.g - I would not recommend spending more on higher range of speakers and the justification wouldn't be done unless you add an amplifier. Its been discussed at TFI since the very first day and not every speaker is capable of performing well without an amplifier, especially the higher end ones. A quote from the ICE considerations thread...
  8. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Linea 1.3
    I completely agree with @PaddleShifter. There also need to be things that compliment each other. An amplifier that can provide clean and sustained signal even under varying power load at higher resistance is 'generally' well-built or better implemented amp. You will find that at lower volumes certain speakers even high end will not produce clean or good sound. So any speakers system esp. components anything above 50W ratings in car audio need amplifiers for sure.

    One also needs to use better quality OFC cables in the precise gauge like say 14 AWG for speaker wires (good quality again for say a Rs. 10k speaker). Again to reiterate somethings, like using a good DSP based HU, like Burr-Brown or Wolfson (ipod fame wolfson is pretty advanced too, except used more in cellphones etc. or other portable sound equipment). Also needed is a qood quality audio-rip. Some say 320kbps makes sure the loss of some subtle information in sound is minimized. Others will go for pure wav (raw) or CD quality rip, while some will choose lossless formats at the cost of more storage and lesser no. of audio files.

    @fiatcrazy, DSPs are becoming less power hungry with better fabrication like 22nm for example. The effect is on TDP (thermal design power and dissipation) and also making them lesser in size, being able to cramp in more advanced features within the same die size perhaps. Good dsps cost, and overall implementation costs are high. If mass produced anything can become cheap. Some silicon chips are not cheap to manufacture or sell due to higher cost of investment since these are also sold in rather limited quantities "not for the masses." Kenwood has one 24-bit DSP in some higher models, maybe better versions of the DSPs in higher models, similar is the case with JVC or even Pioneer. Pioneer 80PRS for example uses 3 discrete DSPs for 3 range of frequencies, also having much better onboard filters and software offering higher control to the audiophile. So yes even a 40k speaker or 2lac Rs. system can be better controlled with such hardware. The importance of DSPs is that most data needs to be re-sampled multiple times and the no. crunching power or accuracy in microprocessing cannot be ignored here.

    The whole thing, therefore, also comes down to much better tweaking control and capability I guess.

    BTW, for some great sound-stage there are brands like Morel (esp. upper series perhaps Ovation series here again) that have a great sound signature and much greater sound-stage capability I hear. Check the link>> http://www.morelhifi.com/car-audio/supremo. Some of these speakers alone cost an arm or leg. ;)

    Having said that there are speakers that cost fraction of these and still produce very near to perfection sound. The trick is in choosing the right brand and esp. the right models within the brand.
  9. fiatcrazy

    fiatcrazy Amatore

    Grande Punto 1.2

    @ kunwar.g & PaddleShifter :

    1. We must add a factor into workbook that's called sensitivity ( some of speakers dont respond properly on lower wattage, because these are designed for louder range but low cost ). A good speaker work at any range. Senstivity of almost all speakers are 89 to 95, more the sensitivity smoother the low volume response.

    2. If we want to add an amp later, we should go for a high rated speaker only. Higher does not mean double or triple. I recommend 1.5x factor if no other speaker is bigger than 6.5". It all depends on total configuration as I suggested. Parameter says if less range speakers are used for higher spectrum coverage, we must have higher rated speakers.

    3. Everyone is running behind the brands & higher costing speakers. we will love any music till the quality we have experienced earlier is lesser than the current one. But here question is how much money I shld invest to get good music as a return.

    Everyone asking what is our budget, actually the professional should ask for an audition, any Audiophile can stretch their budget to their satisfying extent. Investment of 10% more may save money, donot buy directly from online shops till you get an audition of these speakers. or may be you can try your luck.

    4. Its all about experiencing or knowing the detail of the music. or may be competition with our colleague, friend or relative.

    5. If we can compromise on little boot space, a SUB will definitely help in getting a smoother response.

    6. or one can use the 10" or 12" Sub on the tray also ( custom thick mdf is required ).

    7. A Speaker requires deep spaces about 1.25x cubic unit of its cone size. So 6.5" component require 536 cubic inches roughly to work proper on a car door. basically we are spending more more money to make a 6.5" speaker to work like a 12" speaker.

    8. Ferrari to commute Chandni Chowk is when we buy a 6.5" speaker for Punto door @ 85,000. The secret is to save the money is AUDITION of all selected speakers.

    9. 90Hp @ 90Kmph will be smoother definitely that's why I ask to get the speaker with some factor OF need & premium.

    10. The theory that some speaker require Amp for their best performance is ok, but against this theory, here we are comparing to another speakers rather than one speaker with or without amp.

    11. First go experience how much rms is ok for we add 1.5x factor ( for rms over rating ) buy that speaker. dont buy a 100Wrms when we are listening at only 5Wrms. Some of the people recommend the AMP here, the same question when HU amp is enough for the loudness why an AMP required to drive 6.5" component ???

    12. We should go for futuristic approach choosing these speakers. So we can buy higher rated speakers if we are planning to add an amp later. 10000 - 6500 = 3500. all our 6500 go nil when we add an amp later, & we wont feel much difference adding the amp.

    Again it all depends on our desire for music, I bet if we get a very very very crystal clear system we shall feel bore after a year & looking for higher things, & we wont enjoy any other system like watching we TV at home will no longer be an interesting to hear any music on it. It's like if we drive Bullet for almost 15years & bought a Hero Puch or Scooty after that. So my suggestion is to climb slowly ( Slow & Steady win the race). Its like earlier we use bucket to have bath now shower later will have a personal Waterfall. Once we get the Waterfall for the bathing needs, we wont enjoy the bucket & shower in the whole life.

    Conclusion : If we have control over the narrow band of frequency in any electronics like HU with Graphic equalizer or AMP with some DSPs & band pass shifting etc. then only an AMP & Over rated components work properly. With simple bass, Mid & treble controls will do a little with this.

    Infinity Reference are good speakers to consider if no amp is planned to be added later. Infinity Kappa with Amp. Dont have much experience on Hertz, but Rockford prime ( without amp), Rockford Punch ( with amp ) are also available options.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2014
  10. fiatcrazy

    fiatcrazy Amatore

    Grande Punto 1.2
    @ kunwar.g : Polk seems the best in your list. Except IC122 all Speakers are having good continuous rms handling ratings.

    Go for the Polk if budget is not an issue.

    If you're a treble ( high frequency ) lover than go for the co-ax in front also. you can use the stock tweeter with co-ax. So there will be 4 tweeters & 2 types on front also.

    btw did you sold the Indica already ? how much kms it covered ? how you're feeling the difference in a Indica & Punto in terms of followings :

    1. Handling
    2. Visibility
    3. Weight Feeling
    4. NVH - overall without engine
    5. Engine Noise only
    6. Smoothness of engine at 90-110kms/hr
    7. Mileage
    8. Traffic busting - Zigzag driving
    9. Highway performance

    @ PaddleShifter & asimpleson

    thinking, if Polyfill use can be added to the thread ?
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 13, 2014, Original Post Date: Oct 13, 2014 ---

    Jackie Chan's system - Using Focal Speakers - notice different sizes.
    asimpleson and kunwar.g like this.

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