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TFI Official "Aftermarket" In Car Entertainment (ICE) upgrade guide v2

Discussion in 'In Car Entertainment' started by PaddleShifter, Apr 1, 2014.

  1. fiatcrazy

    fiatcrazy Amatore

    Messages:
    55
    NEW DELHI
    Grande Punto 1.2
    like to understand more, as still not digesting the need of capacitors.

    Can i ask followings :

    1. How much RMS power 12" Subwoofers can Handle ?
    2. For this power, what capacitors ratings are required to add ?
    3. How much current exactly the amplifier drawing on this power ?


    We need to change the alternator in any case when we drive 1000Watts RMS, specially incase of Class A/B. Class A/B will draw 2500Watts of power, which comes to a 13.8Volts battery : 2500/13.8Volts = 181Amperes of current. More than a Welding machine outs. & This rating definitely exceeds the current drawn per second from battaery. So a capacitor would be required. Now it comes to a Woofer cone motion mechanics, the contineous power requirement at this moment lets say 75%, still 136Amps. Whta a alternator can produce is 136X14.5 = almost 2KWatts, driving a 1000watts practically requires an alternator change in any case.

    We are talking here about people having Grande or Linea, which comes an old technology, & these are looking for an upgrade of their ICE. These people are happy with output of the Stock ICE, but not with the stock speakers, & instead of changing the speakers they are guessing the stock HUs amp is also poor. becasue it can drive maximum a CD containing MP3s. These fellows also interested that MID shows the same kind of display too, with same centeral console looks.

    They are very narrow while upgrading the stock ICE, & we are talking here to change the alternator ?

    Like all 1DIN units out there in market, enough power is produced to match the hunger of a Punto. Amp is hardly advised here as no one wants to compromise on boot space. What Oval Speakers on Parcel Tray can handle is easily available in 1 DIN as well as in Stock HU.
    So I suggested to use these Bluetooth devices first which are cheap enough to give a try, I bet most of the people here get satisfied with stock HU with adding any of these bluetooth sets,

    SBH52 - Best One
    SBH 50 -
    MW 600 -
    SBH20 - Cheapest One

    Harman Kardon, iSub, Infinity Systems, JBL - are the same brands head by Mr. Paliwal - an Indian
    Bose - headed by another Indian

    Indians understand the sound engineering more than rest of the world. Dont you agree ?

    Writing these name here shows that not necessarily the Class D amps are very expensive. A BJT say 2N2055 is more expensive than an IRFZ44. Most of the BJT from Sanken for an AMP costs more than Rs300 whereas MOSFETS of 5 times rating costs only Rs.52.
    The power circuitry of Class A/B is also expensive to boost driving voltage to a certain level. Not getting understand where I am making a mistake ???
  2. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    2,998
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    Depends on the coils and other structural details that go into designing the sub, limited as far as material science goes and trade-offs of achieving SPL vs SQ while making them easier to manufacture etc. etc.

    Sadly for me, I am not fully aware on this subject, but I am willing to bet they are helpful in certain amp. setups. Like I said I am not from electronics background. But I try and understand some aspects of it.

    Already mentioned on individual amps. Google will help find. However my rough guess PSUs are designed by manufacturers taking into consideration basic setups that could achieve reasonable or perhaps high end sound. Depends on the class of setup and sound power and quality one is looking at.

    Not in any case, depends on the vehicle battery type, sometimes extra deep cycle marine batteries are used which might not even need alternator change. Change of alternator is needed for extensive modifications in car like also running 2-3 batteries supplying systems and charging current concurrently. In Indian scenario yes these things I mentioned are nascent as best, if they are at all considered here.

    They are narrowed by budgets and their individual requirements and no time for fussing around with or for sound setups. Given the right resources of time and money and once exposed to high end sound, some if not all, will get converted to more serious audio enthusiasts for sure. :) Yes, CANBUS data and display on MIDs even like audio tracks etc. many would like to retain during upgrades, but for some they like to keep it stock, even when they know its no so high quality even when compared to say like a 12k Rs. 1 DIN HU, which is a matter of individual choice for them. There are warranty concerns and looks concerns also. There are those who were looking for Blaupunkt manufactured OEM HUs to replace the cheaper Japanese (made in China) unit given in later models of Linea/Puntos.

    I agree with you here. Like I said before, there are individual choices determined also by factors of time, money, stock looks and in some cases, no offense more limited understanding of these subjects for which they can hardly be blamed.

    Not to challenge you on your ratings, but do share why you say so. Purely on listening pleasure or also on the hardware and software built into these HUs? Do shed some light. Do any of these have higher quality DACs or Active crossovers/filters and such ? Can you quote tentative prices, maybe we can come-up with a more refined list about HU options in various brands and try and find the winners amongst the lot for benefit of TFI Forum users.

    Bose was a pioneer in psycho-acoustics IIRC, which is just one important part of how humans perceive sound. Some of his designs and research are second to none. I would like to compare his company philosophy with the Apple product philosophy at minimum when it comes to visual appeal. All these companies make some 'filler products' which generate base revenue, just like cars those which push performance envelope or technology envelope come with huge premiums at times. Fortunately, some of these audio products atleast could be bought at 1/2 or 1/3rd price, brand new after 10 years when these are not "the best" or "unique" badged.

    I appreciate your patriotic sentiment (I would also like to think so :)), but no there is a definitely a huge community within India and much larger in the world, which talks language only best known to them when it comes to sound technology. I have personally a long way to go before I could understand this stuff to a greater level before graduating to an 'enthusiast' level in the real sense.

    Class A/B (at the risk of being flamed myself by some serious sound enthusiast ;)) has a distinctive sound (signature?? or warmth) and accuracy that comes with it. Today morning spoke to a certified sound professional and he echoed similar sentiment about the same. If I get detailed information about this I shall post later. You seem to have a liking or penchant towards the electronic parts of it, might I suggest you to further your quest for knowledge and find more about circuits and their co-relation and trade-offs with sound quality etc. Do share your findings, I am also eager to learn. The finer aspects matter a lot to me. Leave the cost equations out of discussion at first perhaps just to compare at later stage what really is VFM for the average user/buyer (like myself for eg.)
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
    fiatcrazy likes this.
  3. fiatcrazy

    fiatcrazy Amatore

    Messages:
    55
    NEW DELHI
    Grande Punto 1.2
    Let me share my knowledge here :

    Class A/B uses the Linear Technology of amplification, no doubt that Class A/B amps are best when comes to quality of sound. Practically we use to here the music which may consider human hearing band from 10Hz - 400hz, 400Hz - 4Khz, 4Khz to 30Khz ( practically an adult male can hear upto the 10Khz, but keeping a cut on 30Khz will help linear response of the system. )

    Earlier the MOSFETs tech was not that much mature to give a perfect sound over the higher frequencies cos MOSFETs were designed to switch DC, rather than amplification of AC, ( what is basically called a class D amp). Over the period when MOSFET tech went mature enough & price of the component goes down to saturation respect to manufacturing & supplying. The class D is the cheapest available option when come to Price to Watt ratio. Also the high frequency response of the MOSFETS are much improved, but simulteneously the response at 10Hz to 400hz is not that smooth. So most of the manufacturers started using two different types of MOSFET on high end Class D amps. for lower frequencies different & for higher frequency different.

    With same amps using MOSFETs may create noise due to harmonics frequencies.

    Whereas Class A/B is much linear on the entire band. So I suggest to use the Woofer Speaker & Tweeters on separate channel instead of using a crossover circuitry. ( Use Crossover for protection of your expensive woofers).

    Now the problem with goodness of Class A/B is heat generation. 80% of energy drained from a battery goes into the heat & not into the woofer cone. So people started finding other way like PORTED ENCLOSES for the Subwoofers. which basically passes a narrow band of low frequencies ( according to ones taste). whereas sealed encloses pushes all the frequency at once.

    The marginal difference noticed when Class A/B amp drive a woofer or good designed Class D amps.

    IMPORATANT : Driving a woofer require more power than driving a tweeter or speaker for a balance sound for music lovers. So these Class D amps must be used to drive a sub woofer, while driving the other speakers (midrange) & tweeters, it is advissable to use Class A/B. This maintenance the balance of Value for Money & Quality of sound. Crosstalk between channels can be avoided in this way too.

    Option 1 :
    1. Front Channel - Class D - Connect Tweeters ( Class D because nowadays these are into picture due to their efficiency & lower cost & many value HUs give Class D only) .
    2. Rear Channel - Class D - Connect the oval ones. ( Class D because nowadays these are into picture due to their efficiencies & lower cost & many value HUs give Class D only) .
    3. Amp out - Class D Mono - 150Watts to 300Watts RMS max - Sealed enclosed subwoofer on Boot.

    The above option will give more than the enough sound to listen while driving highway, to office in city, but the system will not be sufficient for Drink & Drive parties. or you like to organize a party on beach to dance like in a disc.

    DSPs & DACs :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_series

    The DSPs & DACs are the part of the player units & not the part of driving unit. Driving a woofer is perfectly a POWER ELECTRONICS, whereas DSPs & DACs are high end digital electronics.

    DSPs & DACs quality is measured by mainly bits of conversions of an analog signal, other factors like programming ( software ) , crosstalk, response time etc. etc. etc. so many factors affect the final quality of output sound.

    For a normal human - 128bit sound is nearly perfect, but due to our semiconductor lithography is almost way ahead to 22nm, the DSP & DAC manufactures can go upto any useless extent for dirt cheap money. Nowaday 384bit dacs are most cost effective & much above the requirement of the sound quality recorded & transmitted by most of the common medias.

    So incase of many low cost bluetooth device which are designed for compactness & lower consumption of the battery are 64bit which is just half for good music, & quarter of technology exists in lower cost, a normal A2DP 128bit DAC Bluetooth is sufficient here for the target members driving Punto & donot want to compromise on look, & not that much technical to handle the warranty issues so far.

    Internet is full of such devices, personally we have to test as on papers cheapo also looks good, but sound is basically a test drive kind of thing, different for different people.

    We need a device to make a decent system :

    1. Stock HU with Aux / Bluetooth and/or USB and/or SD card with change on speakers on door.
    2. An Amp for a those love music more than their boot space.

    or
    Tablet to use with Stock HUs

    or
    Tablet to Use with Multi-Channel amp

    or
    1 Din system.

    Sorry friends have to rush somewhere catch you later with more findings soon.
    PaddleShifter and asimpleson like this.
  4. fiatcrazy

    fiatcrazy Amatore

    Messages:
    55
    NEW DELHI
    Grande Punto 1.2
    Friends! tried to find a good solution & found two, here is the first one : 12955928-origpic-ed8f90.jpg 12955928-origpic-8cbee1.jpg

    Second Solution is its on the ways, once all details are confirmed will post soon, but the reason for the second solution is there due to the cost of the above solution. The above will roughly cost from INR45K~INR50K.

    The features of first solution is really impressive, if budget is not a problem.

    GPS, Bluetooth,

    One more similar product is shown here, supports camera, Blue&Me, TV, You can follow this link for the product details :
    http://www.aliexpress.com/item/car-...Ghz-CPU-512M-DDR3-support-1TB/1695890137.html

    import is easy, incase any difficulty, will try be an assistance.

    Yes
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 27, 2014, Original Post Date: Sep 27, 2014 ---
    http://www.bluepower.se/en/product/.../custom-players/fiat/7-fiat-grande-punto.html

    Nice audio set for Linea, Grande Punto.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 27, 2014 ---
    http://www.bluepower.se/en/product/.../custom-players/fiat/7-fiat-grande-punto.html

    Nice audio set for Linea, Grande Punto.
  5. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    2,998
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    ^^These have been suggested before also. One member has installed this or similar HU in his Fiat. Don't know how to search for that specific thread. :confused:
  6. PaddleShifter

    PaddleShifter Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    2,697
    Chandigarh
    Grande Punto 1.3
    I guess you are referring to harryaviator's thread located >>HERE<<
    asimpleson likes this.
  7. Jotinder

    Jotinder Regolare

    Messages:
    308
    New Delhi
    Linea 1.3
    Really nice thread Yashik.
    PaddleShifter likes this.
  8. ani1900s

    ani1900s Novizio

    Messages:
    25
    Mumbai
    Mumbai
    Grande Punto 1.3
    A well explaining thread @ PaddleShifter, it covered majorly everything that a technically amateur but a music lover would love to know about car audio system - to an extent that you actually explained each component so nicely that everyone who reads this can say that he is fully aware of the basics of car audio system.
    I love music but as technically I am also a novice, I did a bit of makeover for decent music (agrees that output of factory fitted music system just cannot impress even a new music listener) - kept same HU due to complexities involved with Blue&Me and the harmony on dashboard, installed JBL component speakers (GTO 609) & JBL's base tube (GT-X1250T) with a Xenos 4 channel Amplifier (with adjustable Gain options to fine tune music as per choice). Rear speakers were kept same from factory fitted and are directly powered from the HU, considering to replace them with coaxials.
    Now considering to replace the HU for better output which can provide a competitive advantage over current Blue&Me features.... please advise if any suitable.
    Work well done by others who added their knowledge to this thread, quite a few went over my head as I lack extreme technical knowledge but Cheers to all!!
    PaddleShifter likes this.
  9. PaddleShifter

    PaddleShifter Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    2,697
    Chandigarh
    Grande Punto 1.3
    Thanks for the kind words @ani1900s. Regarding your query about the head unit (HU), I would strongly advise you to check out various models yourself and see the specifications. Let me share how I selected a head unit for my father's car recently.

    I wanted a future proof head unit despite knowing that my father does not need a subwoofer or an amplifier. But still my requirement was:
    01. USB port.
    02. Good looks of the stereo.
    03. Features (minimum 2 RCA + as many customization options as possible).
    04. Bluetooth

    I shortlisted a few HUs but settled for Pioneer DEH-X7590SD. It has all the features except Bluetooth. The reason I went for Pioneer was because of the fact that steering mounted remote control is available for Pioneer HUs in almost every ICE shop.

    I can make a few recommendations if you tell me the price (maximum and optimum) that you want to spend and your requirements from a HU.
  10. ani1900s

    ani1900s Novizio

    Messages:
    25
    Mumbai
    Mumbai
    Grande Punto 1.3
    Hi PaddleShifter, I wanna choose a HU which will not make me compromise majority of the existing features that are already available..... options that we feel hard to compromise on while seeking an option to change the HU are Bluetooth connectivity (Blue&Me), existing Steering Controls & Voice command navigation. BT is available with many of HUs, but please throw some light on how the new HU will integrate with the steering controls and voice command.
    Also a question that comes in mind is that whether the Windows Blue&Me is installed inside the HU that is fitted in the car or is it a separate part that has Blue&Me installed & then connected to the HU?
    I am willing to spend anywhere between ₹3k-7k for HU with equally good or more features than existing.

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