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TFI Official "Aftermarket" In Car Entertainment (ICE) upgrade guide v2

Discussion in 'In Car Entertainment' started by PaddleShifter, Apr 1, 2014.

  1. PaddleShifter

    PaddleShifter Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    2,697
    Chandigarh
    Grande Punto 1.3
    If you swap OEM HU with an aftermarket one without using a CANbus interface, you will lose the following features:
    Active and Dynamic (without Blue&Me)
    - HU/Stereo's LCD dimming alongside cabin MID illumination control adjustment.
    - Speed volume feature

    Emotion and 90HP (with Blue&Me)
    - In addition to the two features mentioned above, you will lose Blue&Me system and steering mounted audio controls.

    There is no error otherwise and everything works perfectly.

    @fiatcrazy- How does a 2-DIN HU fit in Punto Evo? Because I saw it 2 weeks back and the stereo isn't 2 DIN in Evo.

    @ghodlur- I would not recommend brands here but here is a set up that I like.

    Head Unit: Pioneer 7590SD (USB/AUX/SD/3 RCA/ Rear USB/LCD display with animations/MIXTRAX. (Price: Rs6000-8500 online)
    Front Speakers: JBL GTO608c 6.5" component speakers in doors. (Price: 4000-5000 approx. Variable).
    Rear speakers: JBL GT5 series 6.5" co-axial speakers mounted on MDF spacer rings. (Price: upto Rs2500 approx.)
    Damping: Front doors damped at least. All 4 doors damped preferably. (Price from Rs1500 for 2 door basic damping to Rs10,000 for full damping of all four doors in 3 layers using 1 bulkpack of Dampmat Plus.

    This set up is sufficient though an amplifier and a subwoofer combo can be added as well. But mind the boot space in that case.

    Regarding fitting a 2-DIN HU in Fiats, this is what has been done by a member before. Pic taken from internet and is already there at TFI somewhere.

    Linea Dual Din.jpg

    Besides this, someone has installed a 1-din system with a motorized display.

    2013-01-14-065.jpg
    Iyu and Ravi like this.
  2. fiatcrazy

    fiatcrazy Amatore

    Messages:
    55
    NEW DELHI
    Grande Punto 1.2
    HMI / Tablet & Amp setups seems better options,

    The HMI comes wth Canbus, USB, CardReader, & Audio Outs.

    Whereas Tablets comes with GPS, 3G, OTG ( on the Go ) USB, tons of apps, everything except multiple audio outs & Canbus.

    This seems a good business opportunity to make ICE for G. Punto, Linea & Evo.

    Tuli Motors Accessory sales was offering Rear View Mirror LCD with reverse camera & can play MP3 & MP4 video at INR11k.

    Didn't found any direct solutions yet to invest in. :banghead:
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 25, 2014 ---
    HMI / Tablet & Amp setups seems better options,

    The HMI comes wth Canbus, USB, CardReader, & Audio Outs.

    Whereas Tablets comes with GPS, 3G, OTG ( on the Go ) USB, tons of apps, everything except multiple audio outs & Canbus.

    Followings from the this thread :

    http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/sound-off-show-off/138607-samsung-tab-2-7-install-bmw-x1.html

    Follwing image4111042918.jpg 21.jpg

    image4111042918.jpg

    21.jpg
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 25, 2014 ---
    http://www.3dconceptsindia.com/home.html

    This company makes the plastic parts of any design at reasonable cost, they dont make rough finish parts with fiberglass method of molding but using desktop CNCs & Silicon mold methods.

    Have to contact them for more details.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
    PaddleShifter likes this.
  3. kunwar.g

    kunwar.g Superiore

    Messages:
    522
    Gurgaon
    Grande Punto 1.3
    Very informative and posted just at the right time for me :) so a big thanks

    Now, if I dont plan to ever get a sub woofer ( dont want to lose the boot space) then would it make sense to get 3RCA out or 2RCA out should be enough ?

    The feature I want the most is an AUX input and then SD Card support. I am unable to find a HU with SD card in 1DIN.
  4. PaddleShifter

    PaddleShifter Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    2,697
    Chandigarh
    Grande Punto 1.3
    @kunwar.g - You're welcome.

    2 RCA is fine and even if you want to install a sub-woofer later, you can very well do with a 2 RCA pre out HU as I have shown in the simplified diagrams in the opening post.

    I know only one model that has SD card slot and thats Pioneer DEH-7590SD. There must be other models from other brands that you may Google. I still prefer the USB pen drive so the only thing I do prefer is to have a rear USB slot in which the USB extension cable can be routed to the glove box.
  5. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    3,000
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    No there is much more to it than some would like to think. There is a lot of science that goes behind designing power modules and other circuits for amps. If there is no sustained power from the outside how do the caps inside work well either. Internal capacitors may be there but external sustained power is better and in most cases people will vouch for their efficacy. Its not a placebo effect on people.

    Do tell further if possible about this.

    Yes they can be, but better to use good grade capacitors; within ICE installations there are other precautions also like installing Fuses or selecting proper wiring with good insulation etc. to avoid excessive heating and shorting.

    That is why big capacitors are invented in varying capacities for varying purposes.

    Good details, I agree that certain simple and cheap mods can really make a difference to the highs. Have seen such experiments in home audio, particularly by enthusiasts. Within car audio I am yet to see such DIYs.

    This what you have advised is at best the secret for good sound or great sound, as in best Value for Money. There are some who will feel fatigue after listening to sounds produced by these systems after like half an hour on bit higher volumes. Power and clarity and soundstage etc. comes at cost, too much money than the average listener is willing to spend. There are others who prefer a specific balanced sound and signature or imaging for which they are willing to pay top bucks. It is difficult to explain or justify spending once you've experienced superior sound, you will spend good money if you like good sound depending on what is your mood and attitude and appetite to spend.

    Already mentioned and known fact that most of the HUs do not produce higher than 18-25W RMS per channel in real world. So they even cheat on RMS stating other factors. Why do you think Amps. are made and why are they heavy.

    Since you've spoken about Sony and having used Sony in three cars until now the best feature to buy a Sony is with DM+ without which best not to touch a Sony HU. I have mentioned about this prior to this in some thread.

    Sealed design (for subwoofer?) always better? It has advantages but there are reasons why people design custom boxes of varying deigns/orders etc. Agree with the tube amp bit. But are they common in cars? I guess not.

    The closest thing IMO which comes very near to best sound is a THX 2 rated sound system in some Lincoln Mk(x) series SUVs in USA. However a purist would differ in opinion there too. Sound is a very subjective opinion and you've pissed a lot of audiophiles who will read such opinions. ;)

    Warning: You will be 'flamed' if you quote this way with gross in-accuracies on a sound or audio forum, guaranteed..! No offense at all.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
  6. fiatcrazy

    fiatcrazy Amatore

    Messages:
    55
    NEW DELHI
    Grande Punto 1.2
    13042010694.jpg

    How about this ? Minor Boot Space compromised. Subwoofer installedon very innovative manner & Ported well too Placed amp on the large port.

    Let me be clear : Subwoofers are not basically the addition to a decent music system. Just adding fairly good speakers on the Hatches & Parcel tray is more than the enough.

    Sound deadning play imporatnt role when boot space is not compromised, In Delhi Chawri bazar ( dirt cheap wholesle market for hardware & raw material ), I found a big PVC kind of foamy tape, I tried it to use as a sound deadening pads, & yes this is the right product at perfectly saturated price. ( Manufacturers take huge huge premium for sound deadning things ), The whole roll of the pad cost about INR400 which is about 3 meter long & 75mm wide. Some people uses Yoga mat which is similar but lil expensiceve & non sticky in comparision to this rolled foamy polymer scroll.

    See the images below.

    black-pvc-foam-tape-with-psa.jpg 13042010694.jpg 5060 - PVC Nitrile Foam Tape-500x500.png

    to use an SD card indecent way is to get a Tablet fixed above the dash area if going for 7", for 4.5" or less the stock music system can be replaced.

    There is another way to use SD card, which is dirt cheap but required lil skill to attach to the Stock ICE.

    Tomorrow the detail will be posted.

    Please note, The Amp of stock ICE is perfect the only thing to change the Hatch Speakers & add Oval type on parcel tray ( need MDF tray ).
    Ravi and kunwar.g like this.
  7. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    3,000
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    Girish, I will give some pointers rather than suggesting models on budgets. For lower or entry level models I find Sony with DM+ best in terms of price vs performance, given that all media files are digitally compressed these days. Also the fact that it's dynamic in the way it produces quality sound. There are good models in Pioneer or JVC too.

    However, if one can find you will be more than happy to go for an older generation Alpine. They are by far great products and give a more balanced and faithful sound reproduction.

    For amps., one should ideally buy Class D amps with good tech. figures for THD and RMS output at higher impedance, like 1ohm is higher than 2 which is higher than 4 etc. If price is a constraint, any Class A/B amp will work. Do not believe a word when shopkeepers malign other brands to sell their stock. I have found very very less no. of people who are honest about sound and sound hardware. Some don't even know jack about sound, while others know and still deceive you to empty their racks.

    In higher end HU like mentioned by Paddleshifter TA is a feature, but more impressive feature is Active Crossovers, high quality filters, much better alogrithms, better and way too good DSPs built in. Then again there are DACs which are costly to implement. Wolfson and Burr-Brown are some great DACs/DSPs. On steeper side of the spectrum you will find HUs like Pioneer 80PRS, 1-DIN. A cheaper alternative but cheap for a reason HU is JVC's KD-R90BT 1-DIN. Alpine makes some very great high-end products but they are expensive as well and best if compatible tuning equipment provided by Alpine themselves is used. Kenwood too has one great model with a good DAC in higher range.

    In mid to lower range atleast one should buy 3RCA F/R/S, even if SUB is not installed at first or for a long time. One could see the features and ease of use or ergonomics in a player if one is on budget and then decide which one suits better to his/her taste.
  8. fiatcrazy

    fiatcrazy Amatore

    Messages:
    55
    NEW DELHI
    Grande Punto 1.2
    @asimpleson

    Let me try to find out why Capacitors are used ?

    1. In older days the A-Class apms were in use, with old kind of battery technology. ( Same batteries for the Inverters & for Automobiles).

    2. A-Class Amps draw 2.5 to 5times more power to produce the same sound ( punch through subwoofer).

    3. Nowadays 99% of people are using D-Class amp to drive the subwoofer. which are much efficient in comparision to A Class amps.

    4. Say producing 600Watts of RMS ( Highest power ever produced from one amp channel & single subwoofer) punch the woofer required power of 600/60 = 10amps @ 60Volts & at 12V it will be 50amps. For producing sae punch with Class A amplifiers required atleast 2.5x times of the current, i.e. 50x2.5 = 125Amps.

    5. Now coming to battery technology, now a days you can check the battery drain rate is mentioned on the batteries with the Voltage & AH ratings of the battery, Car batteries are made for continuous charging & discharging whereas the inverter batteries are made for 8hours charging & 8 hours discharging cycle. Coming to drain rate, now car batteries come with high draining rate, so any battery of 35AH can drain 50amps roughly any second. higher the battery storage ratings, higher the drain rate. In most premium hatchback the battary ratings are 45AH ( DIN ) or 55-65AH ( Normal ) rated batteries.

    6. So if our system cannot consume more than 50 Amps per second even in extreme conditions, why we require capacitors for de-rippling. As on above post I explained the amps comes with perfect power module to Boost the voltages to 60 or sometime 120volts, the capacitor size requirement goes less. now a days all SWITCHING MODE, MOSFET based BUCK-BOOST, technology are emerged. So small capacitors which holds enough energy for continuous woofer cone moment. May be in some of the Amps these capacitors are not present & they make all ECU & other car electronics into reset mode.

    RMS vs PMPO :

    RMS is rating for the Amplifiers, & PMPO is the resultant sound output from a speaker, PMPO is plain marketing tool. This was born as most of the Amps & Audio things are being started copying by local manufacturers when the FET technology came into the practical scenarios,

    having a thought to simplify :

    1. When we crank the engine using Auto-start ( all cars can be cranked using this, comparing with bike kick here) , all music system, lights everything go dim. It is due to all of the current a battery can drain in a second goes into the Start Motor only, in same way a woofer can take this much of power. But producing 1200watts rms from a MOSFET is almost 98% efficient, whereas for a BJT amplifier it takes 5 times more energy which is not possible to deliver by a small car battery.

    Sharing knowledge is doubling the knowledge, writing here what i have done practically, May be accidently my experience wass too good to learn anything from it, Seeking all memebers guidance thats why we all joined the forum ?
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 26, 2014 ---
    @@asimpleson mentioned SONY makes are BLUETOOTH adapters used with phone as well as Aux of HUs to convert those to pump the Bluetooth sound.

    THESE ARE BLUETOOTH ADAPTERS TO CONVERT YOUR STOCK HU, to play sound of your mobile wirelessly.
    Sony make are best for good Stereo Bluetooth experience : Headset like can be used with HU :
    SBH52 - Best One
    SBH 50 -
    MW 600 -
    SBH20 - Cheapest One

    Please note that I have mentioned to go for Cheap Driving unit. I didn't recommended any Cheapo Sub-woofer or HUs.

    Totally agree with you that Great sound need investment. I was just sharing my experience, tried so many apms of good brand are equally good as of a local one ( may be its Taiwan made ). They produce equally good sound, some branded amps lack the features. & having limitation on output so they never get burnt out, for this the cost of branded amps are just dmore than the double & in some cases triple.

    We all car users specially Fiat car users thinks that " Sasta Roya Baar Baar" but that not the fact in every condition SIR!

    GN for now, thank for the very good infos you shared.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2014
    varunrtr likes this.
  9. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    3,000
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    Wrong assessment (even more about sales), there is a fairly large no. of amps being sold as Class A/B, due to cost and margins. Class D also has some drawbacks, but lets not get into those intricacies for now. It may surprise you but sellers and installers too plead ignorance if you ask them to show Class D amps. They would rather remove a couple of cheap and expensive ones and if a buyer is lucky he could get a very efficient Class D amp. And again there are those smart people who will still prefer Class A/B sound even over Class D, going by the overall amplifier quality and ratings and sound reproduction ability.

    Highest ever produced by one amp per channel and single subwoofer?? Just today I saw a Rupees 3 lac something 34" cadence subwoofer installed in a Punto. Please be thorough or bit delicate in your statements, once again I mean you no offense.

    I am currently assisting on a hobby project on a friends car to pump out 1000W RMS @ 2ohms which as per some car audio shows is least impressive if participated in for SPL. I even saw a 1 ohm stable 1000W RMS Monoblock AMP just today.

    Current requirement when all systems headlights, AC etc. are a go can be highly draining even for a modern battery. Capacitor install is just an added measure. We will have more discussion, when capacitors are stopped from being built or installed. It is far from any urban myth due to the current draw reasons you stated. Do you know that there is a market in west where it is not too uncommon to upgrade an alternator even just for these very reasons.

    There is a lot I would like to go into detail why capacitors are used and why some don't use it. Quite often it is about going the extra length or added measure. Does it do good to the sound system, it certainly does. Certainly does not harm. The difference lies in perspective, what you might think is marginal or negligible difference could make a huge difference, even in a modern AMP as is very often the case.

    Yes anyone even a bit educated or knowledgeable about audio knows best to ignore PMPO and look for RMS and ohms or sensitivity or THD as the real factors along with many other crucial factors if one is that serious about sound quality and sound install.

    What's the point again? Please refer to answer above.

    Do share, not trying to be intolerant to your opinions, but I suggest you do read more on why certain things sell in the market, how much difference it makes, speak to guys who have aced in this field, speak to owners who have spent on expensive stuff and ask why. Best is to read on specialized forums. It will reform and shake so many beliefs and there is always something new to learn for everybody. In times maybe the external capacitor for AMP power could go obsolete but not today, and not in near future.
    fiatcrazy likes this.
  10. PaddleShifter

    PaddleShifter Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    2,697
    Chandigarh
    Grande Punto 1.3
    Waiting for the tablet mounting options etc. In the meanwhile, please share a bit more about RMS wattage of the stock HU and aftermarket HU.

    While you are correct that a hatch can be sufficiently ICEd by simply upgrading the speakers but that is not applicable to all as serious listeners have the ability to differentiate and pick up small details that an average listener might not be able to.

    A commoner example is photography. As a non photographer, I click my pics and saturate them at times in photoshop. A pic clicked by me at Fiat Caffe is attached for reference. Many people get totally impressed with this pic simply because of the colours. A photography enthusiast friend of mine however was able to observe couple of things that could be improved here.


    DSCF0860e.JPG

    Almost all HUs in the market mention the amp wattage to be 52x4 watts but that is the peak wattage they can supply. I have checked RMS ratings of almost all head units and all of them were quoted at 14x4 watts or 18x4 watts even for the flagship model.

    The stock HU of our FIATs has a 30x4 watts amp but again that is not RMS. The RMS is aound 10-12 watts per channel as per what I had read once.
    Punto@4813 and fiatcrazy like this.

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