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Sudden loss of power while overtaking

Discussion in 'Engine Compartment' started by Rituraj, Jan 14, 2013.

  1. sunswape

    sunswape Regolare

    I can relate many things what Leading777 is saying here. Last week I got my Punto's EGR cleaned which was chocked to hell. I was experiencing jerky response from the engine below 2000rpm. It was like something is pushing the engine back. Atlast the problem got so bad that I had to take it to service center. The concerned mechanic there took a test drive and immediately pointed out towards an EGR problem which he said 'Ye FIAT ka ek hi panga hai bas, EGR' means, this is the only problem in Fiat, EGR. According to him the way EGR works in Fiats is actually faulty. He advised me to completely disconnect the EGR after getting Intake manifold cleaned, its the best way to live happily. The only thing which kept me back for doing so is the Engine check light which started glowing. Anyways, till the time the EGR was disconnected, car was running absolutely fine, there was literally not a 1% hesitation in the way the engine was pulling. As soon as EGR is connected, the same old story started. Now after getting EGR cleaned, car got back to normal. Now the sad part is that after a week, my car has started showing the same damn problem, thou its very very slight but I can see it coming and I bet it'll increase soon. Now the concerned mechanic is actually Senior Tech of FASS here and he knows FIATS quite well so I cant take his words for granted. He himself told me that there is no use of getting EGR cleaned as its a matter of 1000-2000kms and EGR will get back to same state i.e. 80-90% blocked.
    Now the only solution I will follow is to get a Remap and delete this damn EGR and live happily after that.
    And ya, this EGR is not troubling SOME users, its quite common in other countries also, check some threads at fiatforum.com and you'll know.
    This EGR is definitely has something bad in it.
    The only good thing it has done for the car is that it has pushed me to get a remap:evilsmile
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
    3 people like this.
  2. Rituraj

    Rituraj Regolare

    Messages:
    381
    Jorhat, Assam
    This powerloss issue apart, even my car has become jerky below 2000 rpm after fitting the new EGR valve. Not to mention the rpm fluctuations at idle, which didn't exist prior to the EGR installation.
  3. vIjAy_kHaSa

    vIjAy_kHaSa Esperto

    Messages:
    1,353
    Panchkula
    Manifold have MAP/Boost sensor in it according to which the injections take place instead of MASS sensor.
    Even after 78k kms the manifold was not clogged completly and EGR cone pipe holes were choked but not all. Cleaning EGR & manifold did not help much car still used to bog down sometimes especially after driving hard for sometime and then power would come back with a big cloud of black smoke from exhaust.
    Poweloss problem have been solved by replacing air filter box, air intake pipes and fuel pump relay. High pressure pump is derived mechanically by engine. Also engine would sometimes take little extra cranks to start when fuel pump relay is acting up as it could not supply required fuel to bosch high pressure pump, current would still pass through relay but not at full capacity making low pressure pump to not work at its full potential.

    What is the model of your BMW 5 series the new ones comes with plastic cover on engine. As the engine emmission norms are getting tight the EGR duty cycle is increased to decrease NOX that should be the reason why your BMW was much cleaner as EGR opens much less and for much less seconds at a instance. Who knows maybe BMW too face EGR problems you are one user of BMW who did not face the issue but there are EGR problems in BMW too a simple google search reveals them. Have attached one pic of BMW egr doesn't seem any better than a MJD pic you have posted.

    egr.jpg


    Similarly there are users of MJD like me who did not face EGR problems and some who have faced it all depends upon driving patterns of the user.

    EGR is good for enviornment and bad for engine health no matter what the manufacturer is and so is Diesel Particulate Filter.

    These are the picture of my EGR & manifold at 78 k kms.
    DSC_0108.jpg DSC_0111.jpg
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
    3 people like this.
  4. gurjinder

    gurjinder Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    3,989
    Punjab
    Recently, when the manifold was opened up to replaced the hose, I saw it was as gunked up as the pic posted by Vijay. And I have not done even half of 78k km's. But the car is driving just fine and power is strong and progressive from 1800rpm onwards.

    So I do wonder just how much of a performance loss happens due to the gunking up of the manifold/egr. Unless the solenoid has jammed or some critical error has occured, gunking up is a non-issue really. I was thinking of getting it cleaned but seeing that the engine is performing flawless as-is, I have lost all desire to get it done.

    And leading777, your Bimmer's EGR being vacuum operated points to the fact that it's a pretty old engine. Say late 90's?? Can't compare that implementation of EGR to the modern implementation of EGR. This is coming from a guy (me) who has recently sold a 1990 Toyota diesel which had a vacuum operated EGR valve controlled by a mini emissions-ECU. Those systems were crude and not bound by as tight regulations as the modern ones currently are.

    So, comparing the two is not the ideal way forward. Also the EGR issue as pointed out by Vijay is case-to-case variable. One guy in Pune opened up the EGR and it was as clean as anything. His way of driving is best described as "enthusiastic".

    Cheers.
    1 person likes this.
  5. avnsiva

    avnsiva Amatore

    Messages:
    140
    Chennai
    In wolfmoto remap thread, its said that the remap can shut the EGR. So if we turn off the EGR will it be good for the engine?
  6. sunswape

    sunswape Regolare

    It is definitely good for engine. Currently Iam trying hard to get some more guys for a remap here in Chandigarh so that Wolfmoto people agree to come and do a remap. Ah... I envy you people leaving south :-D
  7. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    3,000
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    Egr also works in a way to keep engine temperature from reaching extremes by keeping them in range for optimal rather than peak performance all the time.

    It can translate to better long term engine health with slight compromise on performance if one is willing to live with those.

    Heart sent via Tapatalk for our mutual benefit..!
  8. I think the Pics reveals a Lot about Proper Engine Design.....AnD Explains Why This Problem is Occuring
    Its upto u to appreciate or not.
    Regardless if its Vacum-Electric Operated or Solenoid Operated.2 Valve or 4 Valve
    Whats The Point in 8 bit 16bit 64 bit or 100000bit Computer ECU .......
    When At the End It results in Severe Power Loss Problem & High Sludge Build UP.
    YOu will see People with NO COMPUTER Vehicles Overtaking U.
    Japanese (Maruti DDis) & Germans did their HomeWork Well Unfortunately Italians with their Bad Management & Analysis Skill Failed Very Badly otherwise this THREAD would not have exist.
    Yup Their Designs are Excellent & I Really Love my Linea thats why havenot sold yet.

    @ vIjAy_kHaSa Your Photos reveal a Lot about Excees EGR Air Doing a Lot of Damage.
    ****************************************************************************************
    110% Agreed - > "EGR is good for enviornment and bad for engine health no matter what the manufacturer is ".
    ****************************************************************************************
    Who Makes Out All these Emission Norms that POLLUTE the Engine ......
    The Same People who Burn the World with their Endless Fake Wars & Missile/Advance Weapon Testing...(Discovery / National Geographic)
    Now they are Bankrupt cause of their Sick & Crooked Thinking & Close their Own National Park / Libraries to save Money .... What a Joke
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
    1 person likes this.
  9. @ asimpleson THERE is World of Difference between Engineering of BMWs & FIAT ..As much as I Love my ~BEAUTIFUL~ Linea (with Its Extremely Well Built Chasis) ...

    Its a PAISAVASOOL at 7~8 Lakhs .They are giving BM Merc Quality THWACK Shut Door at 1/4th the Price.
    ....But Maruti costs even Less though u will Never Get the Build Quality of FIAT or BM ....... cause the Japs (Maruti DDis) did their HomeWork Well in ECU Program/EGR Design.

    ..... Back To German Topic .....HehHehE :rolleyes:
    BM Engines Have Won MULTIPLE "ENGINE OF THE YEAR" AWARDS than All the MANUFACTURERS COMBINED.Not Even Mercs come close.

    Mercedes vs BMW: Engine of the Year Awards --> Mercedes vs BMW: Engine of the Year Awards commercial - YouTube

    Other Aspects of Difference between Simple Design , Removing & Fitting Time required between BM & other Manufacturers would require a Separate Small Article .
    Cause i am Hands ON Approach Owner & Repairer of my E39 BM/other cars . I Am Just Impressed with their Engineering , Nothing Can be Compared .
    You Can Appreciate more About your & my view of German Engg in Here


    "Superb, Stunning...An Engineering Masterpiece" -> 1997 BMW 5 Series - European Car - Motor Trend Magazine


    "The best car in the world" -> BMW 5-Series | Auto Express


    "E39 was the best example of Dr. Reitzle's perfectionist character." -> BMW 5-Series E39


    "Here’s everything you need to know about the Last car you’ll ever need to own" http://www.ge39.com/files/e39guide.pdf‎

    ....... BACK To Italy.........HehHeHE:p

    Its So Funny ...... Every FIAT Service Center Mechanic in India knows about this Problem ,Yet FIAT is not issuing a Recalll or REMAP Engine of Customers
    Instead they are Wasting Time of Customers & Their OWN Money in replacing EGR Units Multiple Times.
    The cheaper than FiAT ...Japs (Maruti DDis) & Germans atleast would have Done Sooo Much Testing & Analysis that it would Not Passed even passed Production Status if this Excess Sludge build up would have occured in Pre-Production Test PhASE.

    I had my Problems around 700~1200 kms..... Other Users After EGR Replacement /Cleaning have reported repeated problem within 1000kms.

    When it cant even pass a 1000km customer Test How Can They Factory Produce it DAILY .

    I mean is FIAT Management filled with OverPaid BRAIN DEAD Engineers , Managers or What ? :evil:
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014
    1 person likes this.
  10. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    3,000
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    I hope not... :)
    The rules of engagement for Indian market conditions need to be strictly reviewed by them time and again.

    A point to ponder on is, if Fiat starts copying certain amalgamation techniques from BMW or Toyota or Suzuki, can there be a Fiat feel that will be lost in the bargain. Maybe if Fiat starts tuning the engine at lesser state of performance the said problem could vanish, but at the cost of making an even low power to weight ratio vehicle..who knows.

    I think Gurjinder in his reply has put things in better perspective and eventually this could be one of those things that people just learn to live with.

    It somehow comes to managing our expectations from what we are paying for. And it's a problem but not as pressing that most would be worried or alarmed by it.

    Heart sent via Tapatalk for our mutual benefit..!
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2014

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