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Should Odd-Even Rule Continue??

Discussion in 'Hangout' started by metal_heart, Jan 8, 2016.

  1. metal_heart

    metal_heart Amatore

    Messages:
    173
    Noida
    Linea 1.3
    While HC consider worthiness of ODD-EVEN rule; what does fellow member feel about this. Should the rule continue? or was it just a political gimmick.

    I feel, the rule was thoughtless solution. Many more things should have been considered before implementing the rule.

    - What was the benchmark, to call it success? How much reduction in pollution was government eyeing (1% / 5% / 10%). No benchmark was shared; hence very difficult to call it success or failure

    -Pollution breakdown category wise never shared/considered? How much was actual contribution of vehicular pollution (especially pvt vs commercial)

    -How was 15 day trial decided? Was it based on some study or random? why not 5-day / 10-day / 20 -day

    - Why an independent body is not formed to evaluate the result

    - Not related to this ban (but others). Why aren't commercial and private vehicle considered differently. Why a blanket ban for all, that too by age and not fitness of vehicle. Are 10 year old commercial truck, a diesel cab and a private vehicle fair to compare

    -What if it rains now(continuous for many days). How would that data will be compared

    - Mr A.K. always mentioned - "If you get troubled too much, we wont continue"?? how is trouble measured?? More Importantly, how would you know the trouble one is facing.

    - Why are people stressing more on less-congestion. Yes, congestion will reduce pollution; but that was not the primary focus

    - Why weren't road congestion causes dealt first (like road side parking/encroachment/ lane-indiscipline)

    -What measure/action are planned for other factors contributing to pollution (such as dust/industries/adulterated fuel/garbage burning)


    Though, I'm not directly impacted by ODD-EVEN rule (being in Noida); but feel like,( if by political influence); this half-baked scheme is going to impact other cities (without much thought)


    I do want Delhi (and rest of India aswell) pollution free; but the steps should be well thought off, studied and planned
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
  2. SwifttoPunto

    SwifttoPunto Novizio

    Messages:
    47
    Bangalore
    Punto Evo 1.3 90 HP
    I have few thoughts to add:
    1. There is a saying in Kannada which translates into 'when a Bull became ill, treatment was given to Buffalo'. When the problem was pollution, Govt tried to address the traffic issue. Now people may say it has reduced the traffic and is a good measure.
    2. People may say it is a just a start. A wrong start will make people to oppose even the right move later. I am sure huge number of people would have faced inconvenience in the absence of reasonable public transport infrastructure.
    3. A move which was politically motivated and implemented without any basis as pointed out by metal_heart above, bound to fail, unless data is fudged to prove their move.
    4. I will be happy if this move fails. Atleast then Govt may take (as High Court is pressing on them) certain measures that address the real problem.
  3. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    Completely disagree.

    The odd-even rule needs to be made permanent, or periodically changed versions of it.

    Get cars off the road. Make room for pedestrians, cyclists, scootrists, bikers, e-ricks, e-scooters and esp micro, small and higher-capacity shuttles and buses. There is NO other way.

    The principle to follow is that of 'environmental justice'. i.e., per capita more-or-less EQUAL quota of pollution+road-space-use+commuting time+comfort etc.

    Private car and suv owners are BY FAR the most privileged violators of environmental justice: they are 'free riders' who pollute, and moreover usurp PUBLIC (i.e., something that should be more or less 'equally' or at least 'fairly' distributed) land, other peoples' time and space, not to mention public resources. What's more: many/most car owners in Dilli ncr are tax-evaders on a big scale, so no they are entitled to no priveleges.

    85%+ of delhi's citizens depend on buses (increased in number by the delhi govt), the metro, auto-s, ricks, walking, and 2-wheelers. IF they can, why cannot car owners?

    The delhi govt is not doing a knee-jerk thing. There are a series of big measures, including severe fining of commercial vehicles entering the city, shutting down of 2 coal-based delhi power plants, road dust vacumming etc.

    There IS an emergency.

    They are to be congratulated for smashing through the complacent, cynical, inertial and completely self-defeating and self-harming 'traffic jam' in our heads-and-our-behaviour-as-urban-citizens.

    They have not gone far enough, hopefully the courts will, though i doubt it. Both the central government, the road transport minister, the auto lobby, and the lobby-of-lobbies (the car owning 'middle classes' who are supposedly aam aadmi-s but are in fact the 10-15% elite of the megacity, the greenest and yet dirtiest city in the world!) will, esp via the media, put formal and informal pressure on the delhi govt aas well as the courts.

    They need to: (a) put a one or 2-year moratorium, at first, on all new private vehicles, esp diesels and large 4-wheelers (b) extend odd-even to 2-wheelers in the next phase, once enough buses, ubers and e-ricks etc are on the newly freed up road space (c) auction drivers' licenses with a very high reserve price (d) or, auction car and bike registrations, or have an e-lottery with VERY high charges/taxes etc.

    The polluters, congestion-causers, pedestrian-safety-respect-violators, urban-sprawl-causers i.e., the private car and suv-owners of dilli, who are some of the most priveleged yet most out-of-control and lawless/irresponsible drivers on the planet, MUST pay, now and in the future.

    The government has well-begun. Now the work of using the freed-up road space to supply e-ricks, buses, shuttles, perhaps BRT again, cycle tracks and sccoter-motorbike lanes, and to publicly enable and encourage and insist on ride-sharing and 'uber'-ization of private transport (uber or uber like app-s are already being deployed for mini buses and auto-s too) must continue MUCH further and simultaneously.

    SIMULTANEOUSLY. We will end up in urban hell, in fact we're there already, IF we keep waiting for everyone else (commercial uv-s and truck-walas etc) to be forced/disciplined before we are i.e., if we do not take personal and civic responsibility, if we keep having the theoretical cake of "Delhi should like Singapore" even as we individually keep practising the urbi-cidal perversities of the private car on any day at any time and anywhere.

    Heavy, practical and easily enforeceable RESTRICTIONS, like the odd-even scheme, on cars are essential. Without them, no other part of the transport system can be improved sustainably. Delhi tried cng-ization. Benefits over in no time. The huge metro expansion has had NO statistical effect in the trajectory of delhi's congestion, road-management-lawlessness or pollution.

    Cars and bikes should be for fun and driving pleasure alone. NOT for commuting. Directionally or ideally-speaking. THAT is the singapore approach, one that is being implemented by dozens of 'third-world' cities let alone so many Japanese, Korean, Chinese and European ones.

    Is delhi or are indian cities and their populations somehow different? These are the new, global laws of urban transport systems-improvement the world over: get cars off the road. tax and penalize them. deter them. use the freed space and resources and time to radically beef up buses, trams, ride sharing, e-ricks, e-bikes, 2-wheelers etc. meanwhile, enforce tough emissions norms.

    We cannot expect the 80-90% of city dwellers who do not have cars to carry on with public transport etc (such as it is) while we keep claiming that setup is not 'fit for' us bhadralok. That is a sort-of caste-ist attitude, which is at the heart of the problem.

    Only when the middle class and elites (pvt transport owning) starts needing buses, autos,taxi-s, etc will that system improve and stay excellent. e.g., Bombay/Mumbai. In delhi, the opposite is the case! With the metro being a small exception.

    @metal_heart
  4. SwifttoPunto

    SwifttoPunto Novizio

    Messages:
    47
    Bangalore
    Punto Evo 1.3 90 HP
    There is a difference in the cities/coutries that adopted this system and India or Delhi specifically. I am not in Delhi but Bangalore is no different on transport perspective.
    If Beijing or Paris has adopted it, we have to see their public transport system to that compensates/supports this. if we check on Internet it says Beijing has 28,000 buses and 527km operational train system. Delhi has 5000-6000 buses and 100 odd km Metro. It is certainly knee jerk reaction by the Govt that too not in right direction. It can not put people through such a serious inconvenience without proper basis. Even high court pointed it out. I can put forward detailed reasoning, figures and confidently say this is not rightway to handle it. If it is then we are not in democracy. Everyone is aware of the seriousness of the issue and ready to contribute, but it has to be in the right direction. If it is about elite class, they certainly buy another vehicle and I not bothered about them.
    If somebody comes and tells me scrap your vehicle after 10 years because it pollutes I would do that without hesitating. If they say buy only petrol I would have done it. But this policy without first creating a usable public transport system is completely unacceptable.

    As court said if it is for one week or 15 days it is fine. I appreciate atleast that we have decent legal system which many times understands people and their well being better than Govt/political system.
  5. Revv

    Revv Amatore

    Messages:
    104
    Chinchwad, Pune
    Chinchwadgaon Pune
    Linea 1.4
  6. metal_heart

    metal_heart Amatore

    Messages:
    173
    Noida
    Linea 1.3
    @prabhjot

    I would have agreed with your post, had India been able to deal with its 3 biggest problem
    - Corruption
    - Population
    - Un-Education (not Illiteracy)


    India is far far away, for adopting models of developed country. India is too diverse (plus the above problem); which are major hindrance to implement any of those.

    We need, India specific solution(s); which are well thought of, planned, monitored and executed; by a visionary.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
  7. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    Guys, these solutions are being attempted in Mexico City, Sao Paolo, Curtiba, Beijing, Shanghai, Porto Alegre, etc etc: none of them are in 'developed' countries.

    You cannot get a bus system improved at all UNLESS you get cars off the road: there is no room for them to pass through freely, speedily and safely enough. Hell, in Delhi nobody wants to be hired as a bus-driver, even at govt pay scales in the dtc. It is one of the most-avoided jobs in the city!

    Guess which city under which govt/party/leader has India's best and very successful BRT (still small) system?
    Hint: Ahmedabad!

    Delhi's bus system is ample: however, most buses are mostly 3/4empty except at peak hours. Why? Because EVEN the working class, students, poor, women etc cannot afford the slow time it takes to get anywhere by bus. Why? Because 80-90% of the road space is always occupied by the 12-15% of people who have private vehicles, esp cars and suv-s! Even our aayyaa uses auto-s to get anywhere, rather than buses, though it costs her so much more in money, but what is the monetary 'value' of lost time and lost 'productivity'? Even for the poor let alone the traffic-commute-jammed, the traders whose markets don't get clients because there's no parking, or firms investing in the city....?

    Of course pollution has many causes, and is a complex and largely unknown function of weather conditions (wind, humidity, temperature, rain) EVEN if there is no road dust or construction dust, or wood or garbage burning, or crop residue burning AT ALL, say tomorrow.

    But if 35-40% of the cars are off the roads for 50% of the time, that has reduced pollution, ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL. That is an incontrovertible, physical and mathematical fact.

    The court is plain and simple stupid to even ask for any 'proof' of data. btw, there are several dubious pollution data reports floating around, many of them very suspect: such as the ones from TERI (rivals of CSE), which is, guess what, funded by Tata. NDTV's air-pollution campigns are sponsored by, guess who, Toyota. Who waged a campaign of destruction of the BRT project under the previous delhi govt, whatever its teething design problems, but the TOI? The union road and transport minister is a close 'ally' of 'infrastructure companies' and auto firms too, is a very well-known and openly broadcast fact. etc etc.

    As I said, there are many different lobbies that will try their darndest to sabotage this, hopefully just the beginning of a transport policy and system revolution in delhi. And in other cities, hopefully, IF people just see beyond their noses. Calcutta, [Mumbai] and Gurgaon are, apart from delhi, among the top 7 most congested AND air-polluted cities in the world. There sure is a MIGHTY correlation between an excessive number of pvt vehicles, whatever their emissions quality, and air pollution. That is a UNIVERSAL phenomenon, found everywhere on earth, even in saudi arabia or in dallas county, texas, us of a.

    It is very simple. Environmental justice i.e., common but differentiated (i.e., the rich pay first and pay more) environmental responsibility. Nobody has ANY more right to the air, or the right to dirty it, to public space and time and resources, or the right to occupy it and reduce/deny it to others than ANY one else, adjusting for their needs-to-pollute. Irrespective of how much money they have or how great their right to consumption of high-status and quality branded 'goods' like cars. The bad joke is that 95% or more of delhi-ite car and suv owners are tax-avoiders and active epic tax evaders, judging by the people i know here (i was born and raised here)!

    And if buses, autos, 2-wheelers, rick, auto-s, cycles and walking, and ride sharing and uber and metros are the way 85% of delhi travels, well then nobody has any business demanding that they be allowed to harm them even as they travel (deludedly) in so-called private comfort and style and status. Deludedly, since they are going nowhere fast, that's how choked things are, and how lawless/impossible to police. Delhi is also the world's KILLER traffic there are more traffic related fatal deaths and injuries of pedestrians, cyclists and bikers here than (almost?) any other city. And road rage and drunken driving and 'laal batti culture' and 'rapes in cars' etc etc.

    Per Capita pollution and per capita road use: Delhi has 85+% of the population with access to less than 10-15% of the available public space for roads and parking, footpaths etc. The per-capita pollution and road-hogging and others'-time-hogging done by a mere small minority is WAY more than ANY notion of fairness or urban mobility-efficiency would possibly allow. Just because Delhi ncr has over 8 million private vehicles does not mean cars and suv-s are an elementary aam aadmi basic human right. Only a small fraction of the population has access to private vehicles, EVEN in Delhi, the richest per capita state in india.

    Believe me, there is NO more unequal and unjust transport and civic-ally perverted city anywhere on earth. Delhi incidentally has more land (worth hundreds of thousands of crores) as a % of the total allocated officially, and usurped too, for roads and flyovers and parking (22-25% apparently), than any other city in the world! So we cannot possibly say 'widen the roads first' or 'improve traffic management first'. Like with the cng conversion and the metro we can and must do so wherever possible BUT it will all be necessarily and inevitably useless unless the sheer number of cars, new of course but also 'old', is brought down by at least 35-50%. Proof? the HUGELY improved commute times EVEN at rush hour since the odd-even rule was applied, mostly voluntarily by ordinary folks.

    This is not a free market or a right-to-consume (cars) issue at all. Since cars move on public space, affect other people in so many ways just by being on the road, and they pollute. i.e., the 'market' has failed since it is not factoring in the 'externalities' and 'feedback loop' COSTS, monetary (eg., lost productivity and efficiency, distorted land prices and rents etc) and ecological.

    The failure of the government lies not in the implementations of these slew of measures, the odd-even one being just one, they say temporary one. It lies, in dilli ncr, in pandering to the car manufacturers and petrol pump etc lobbies, the road and flyover contractor lobby, the property-owner and developer lobby and finally the middle class+media lobby-of-lobbies. This state government is the first one to have displayed an autonomous leadership from all these elite and/or crony-elitist lobbies, that much credit they are due, whatever else one may think of these policies.

    Mumbai and Bombay have a WAY superior public transport system, inter-modal too (local train+auto/cab+uber....), and Mumbai is the quitessential third-world megacity, supposedly pathological. If Mumbai can, so can dilli. Not that big a deal at all.

    Mumbai/bombay has the first public demands (fromthe ncp and shiv sena i believe) for the implementation of the odd-even rule there too. Because in Mumbai the "little people" have more of a voice and they know what is possible even in a poor over populated country since they already have a good suburban train+auto/cab system and also better traffic policing. There is little air pollution in Mumbai, so how come it is a (how much?) popular demand from ordinanry Mumbaikars? Except the car-owning classes and 'castes' of course, one suspects?
    Abhishek Paranjape likes this.
  8. metal_heart

    metal_heart Amatore

    Messages:
    173
    Noida
    Linea 1.3
    So, in other words, you detailed/elaborated; what I summed up (earlier) as 3 major problem(s) of India

    - Corruption
    - Population
    - Un-Education (not Illiteracy)

    . Primary reason; failure to implement & follow 'lane discipline' and second the number of vehicle. Summarized to Population & Un Education


    Not necessarily the slowness; but primarily the last mile connectivity, reliability and more importantly 'Safety'. There are numerous example in NCR, where people have been victim (while using public transport) due to safety issue. Again, reason may be summarized; to Corrupted policing system and secondary; we are so huge in number (population), ratio of police: public is way staggered.

    My home - office is 15 km. Not government public transport available, only option is shared auto (that too, have to change thrice) and noida is definitely unsafe to travel using this mode of transport. Same applies to 12 team mates of mine out of 17.

    That's what we need; but evaluating worthiness first. If 50% car off road only result in say 5% reduction in pollution; while 50% factory closure reduces say 20%, what you think should be done logically.

    God save the country, if people feel same.

    Corruption (Unethical use of power); what else

    And you believe this ODD-EVEN would help controlling them. Not sure, if you have read the news; GGN taxi operators are already offering the taxi in-leiu of personal car to delhi ppl for 1 day
    Are we still talking about pollution?


    Anyways, each one of us is open for our respective POV. I do appreciate your views, and do gives a different angle. But in a HEN(Govt)-EGG(public) situation; the government definitely has to take a step forward in right (emphasizing again RIGHT) direction.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
    prabhjot likes this.
  9. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    The thing is everything, and everyone, is interlinked, as is every problem, which also means every perception of self- and civic-interest/identity/welfare/wellbeing.

    The 'government' 's job, or rather that of political parties is to mediate all these in line with, hopefully and at least in crisis-situations/levels, the 'common good', and in good faith too. The courts are NOT always the competent or effective or indeed good-faith or fully-civically-rational doer of that job, especially in India.

    On that count I do not think one can be so skeptical/cynical of these, several (and this is only phase 1 they're saying) measures by this local state/city government.

    The odd-even scheme is practical: unlike the shutdown of industries (already happened damaging delhi's economy and working class people in the extreme 15 years ago, on court orders), and the extremely expensive cng-ization+ultra-expensive metro expansion (also already happened), it is easy enough to enforce and police, and is not ultra-expensive for citizens or the govt.

    Of course, other measures are needed, none more so than ride-sharing, uber-ization of autos, and shuttle buses for last mile connectivity, but especially getting footpaths in shape and free-of-parking, getting cycle tracks+scooter-bike partitions going, and on ALL mojor, wide roads re-introducing the BRT.

    Sadly for delhi, NCR, the noida and gurgaon/haryana authorities may not cooperate fully or at all, despite gurgaon already being, on its own, the 7th most congested city (and filthy!) in the world and yet one with extraordinarily wide roads and the total domination of cars and suv-s.

    This stuff is NOT difficult to do, it just needs a degree of civic cooperation, and voluntarism, which the govt is trying hard to foster. Mumbai has shown the way already for decades wrt good public transport for all, even the elites, and will also hopefully take up the mantle on road and car-rationing, since it desperately needs it in order to save itself from economic sclerosis/death.

    Delhi needs to NOT just for reasons of pollution: for a whole host of other reasons too, from basic-justice and fairness to lawfulness and security/police-ability, to economic efficiency and productivity and continued vitality in the face of competition from ever-newer towns (NOIDA, Gurgaon, Manesar....Jaipur.....) that are feeding off it yet are slowly corroding its economic vitality/competitiveness.

    Give it a while: the congestion will return EVEN with the odd-even rule. Why? Many folk who are deterred by certain journeys' clogged traffic will start enjoying the congestion-reduction enough to take up trips they would not have otherwise, and so, it will be back towards square-one. That is how many cars there already are in dilli ncr. Once the bs6 fuel and emissions norms etc come and if they say find a way to reduce old-diesel-cars, the large automotive part of the HUGE pollution problem may come under some slight control, but the larger traffic-congestion-crisis and inequity and inefficiency and lawlessness will remain.

    There is, then, NO other way in the immediate present, let alone the medium or longrun BUT to drastically and permanently reduce the number of cars in delhi ncr. The odd-even rule and the closing down of the 2 old power plants etc, like the metro, and cng-ization before that, are just, hopefully, the beginning of an admittedly very tough, long civic battle?

    @metal_heart Thanks for the discussion, this is an important-for-the-rest-of-the-country experiment, let's see how it goes! Like many/most others here, am personally a little hopeful, or rather less despairing and disgusted than before. At least everyone's being 'forced' to apply their 'enlightened' self-interest, and consider matters from a more-inclusive, civic and less-short-term perspective. A great change for delhi and us dilli-wala-s, in ANY case, no? :)
    Abhishek Paranjape likes this.

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