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Safety concerns of Maruti

Discussion in 'Safety First!' started by renjithlal, Nov 22, 2015.

  1. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    delhi ncr
    The Ford ecosport barely has ANY rear bumper protection at all! Sub-4m chopping. Neither does the i20 'elite' for the same reason. In fact the Ford ecosport and the i20 elite's radiators sit so much closer to the front edge/grill of the cars that in a Punto (or even the great-ol' Palio) whose front overhang is large for this reason (partly.) The Punto is supposed to be not as spacious as a 4m long hatch should be. That is the team-bhp-wala opinion: where has the length's space utilization gone, they ask. Well pretecting the engine and radiator (partly), not to mention the rear end too, that's where?! The Avventura's spare wheel mechanism's a chore, they said, no one bothering to point out the enormous rear-ending/shunting protection the Avventura enjoys as a result over the ecosport (or, now, the Vitara Brezza). Likewise for door panels: the Fiats have thick ones for safety and nvh reasons, the Jap and korean cars have minimised ones ('space utilization'!)....
  2. acechip

    acechip Superiore

    The I20 Elite, is'nt a typically flimsy build car though. It feels much more solid than the Swift and its brothers, and perhaps more so than even the Micra. The Polo is also quite solid in terms of door panels. The interior space is a matter of clever packaging too. Reduce the squab a bit, and you have a caaar instead of a 'car'. Need to check out the Figo-heard its been 'optimized' without being compromised.
    @prabhjot -seriously though, do you feel that the Avventura has been designed from get-go with the rear spare mount to keep a rear bump impact in mind ? If that was the case, almost all other manufacturers would have used and highlighted it as a safety aspect! That it provides a greater margin during a rear impact is a side effect, but certainly not a conscious decision!
  3. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    delhi ncr

    No what was meant was: by being mounted on the rear bumper and without necessitating a chopping-off to duck under 4m, the Avventura retains (enhances?) the Punto's already excellent rear-ending-protection, while the opposite is true of say the Ecosport.

    I respectfully disagree: the i20 'elite' is unacceptably light and flimsy, better than some/most maruti-s but that is saying nothing!

    The point is that NOT ONLY are these cars not crash-safe (whatever the terms of that crash test), and there is a lot of anecdotal evidence in this regard (the absence of a mere asean ncap zero star test to confirm so still leaves the burden of all-too reasonable doubt on MS and HY), they are all-too expensive to repair even with minor scrapes, shunts etc. There is systematic shaving-off of redundancy/strength (depending on costing factors) of every possible component, ostensibly in the name of lightweighting-for-mileage but in fact just to

    take advantage of the unregulated car market here, with the vast majority of buyers suffering from deep assymmetry of info between themselves and the car makers, and in any case often not having the engineering etc knowhow to figure stuff out or interpret the car makers' claims+ good old ignorance, indifference and superstition, etc.

    Besides, the lightweight i20 just rides and feels like a very flakey car: not comfy
    outside its supposedly 'slick urban yuppie' hometurf. It is easily the least deserving hit-car in our market, alongwith the Creta. At least the Maruti-s and Toyota Etios have good-fun and decently balanced ride-handling etc, by contrast.

    I am a (small) independent investor, and have specialised based on some reasearch and journalism (years ago) for years on investing in maruti (and hyundai etc) suppliers, the ones listed in india. Delhi ncr being Maruti etc origins territory for the indian car industry. I personally know a major supplier business-family to Maruti Suzuki.....i can fully confirm that there is a ruthless cost-cutting (trading-off of quality/redundancy/tolerance/durability) with weight+cost. Ruthless. On principle, no holds barred. And largely: invisible.

    This game is NOT about percieved visual, tactile 'quality'. The opposite: it is about the not-percieved, the what-you-can-get-away-with in the market, given your clout/trust/reputation etc. Everyone does it, and has to, in any industry in th world. BUT, given their RARE and old market-size and clout in India, as well as their 'third world markets specialist' nature, none does it quite like Maruti S and Hyundai. Honda tried with their recent models, and have failed, to much damage financially and to their refinement+quality reputation. The stronger they get in the market (upto 70% or so, combined) esp for the more so-called 'premium' segments the more they will do it and get away with credit for 'continuous improvement', since their cost-price tradeoffs with vendors and suppliers will get easier and more economical to make, given scale and the price they can command.

    Hyundai is an upwardly mobile global auto firm that is STILL a discount brand every where it operates,including in china, brazil, mexico, and other em-s. Here though, and this is very exceptional, Hyundai's typical korean 'piracy philosophy' of "look and feel glossy and rich and well built and world class precisely because you are/were(?) NOT", availing of a poor emerging aspirational markets' distorted sense (if any) of the 'real thing' has worked epically well for them, with lots of help from the indian government's free trade agreement with s korea, and good early job with the santro and its after-sales, etc.

    Safety via engineering systems' integration (brakes, suspension, steering, tyres, chassis, crush zones, etc) and components' strength and quality are almost beside the point in the indian market. It will make no difference to any firm to base their 'offer' in India on such parameters, at the level of sales-numbers and profitability, etc.

    'Jugaad cars'-with-lipstick-finery-and-nailpolish for a country that lives and breathes and sees-virtue-in 'jugaad', is a pithy way of summarising the matter, i am afraid. Hyundai etc have all the ability in the world, but they won't change this approach, not until there is proper and honest regulation from.....(ahem)?
  4. acechip

    acechip Superiore

    @prabhjot, if indeed MSIL engages in ruthless cost cutting in absence of proper regulation, its cars will fail miserably in any independent crash test scenario. MSIL is one of the " too-big-to-fail " companies for India, so I believe the independent regulatory body will be sufficiently tweaked to ensure this scenario never happens.
    prabhjot likes this.
  5. platinumshine

    platinumshine Regolare

    The Elite i20 crdi has kerb weight of 1222 kg (src: overdrive), I don't think Hyundai might have done any serious weight reduction on the Indian variant compared to the one sold globally. Compared to Swift/Baleno, the Elite definitely feels better built. Oh and that ultra refined diesel engine!

    GANESH H Amatore

    Linea Classic
    @platinumshine, Very valid point. Same case with Hyundai Verna. It is heavier than city and ciaz. According to autocar India magazine kerb wait of Hyundai Verna top end model is 1191 kg which more than ciaz and city by 61 and 26 kg respectively and 76 kg lighter than Fiat Linea ( 1268 kg).
  7. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    delhi ncr
    Yes the diesel engine that gets imported tax-free from korea, and is 3.5-4 secs slower than a 1.3 mjd on the Punto/Avventura, in gear, from 20 to 80 and from 40 to 100 (comparo tests done by AutoBild India). And emits 25-30 g more of CO2 than it i.e., is less fuel efficient than it on the same auto bild test mode, even as it claims better fuel efficiency (with ARAI's 'official' stamp)! And, the refinement while good is not one jot superior to the mjd's (the same auto bild india test figures, done twice, once for the punto evo+i20 elite which were launched near each other, and then for the avventura vis-a-vis the i20 active): their 3 decibel readings showed the Punto+Avventura 1db better at one speed, 1 db worse at another and finally equal db at a third.

    If the Hyundai-s are heavier, then their chassis and esp suspension engineering is indeed poor, because the i20 elite feels too weak at its road holding and choppy on bad-ish roads. On the other hand, an ultra light Toyota etios/liva or even the baleno rides and road-holds so much better.

    Point being: if you're a brand that cannot for ethical and/or brand-dna reasons under-spec chassis, powertrain, basic-safety, bumper+sheet-metal and suspension engineering (e.g., FIAT and previous-to-now Ford, arguably Tata since the vista/manza? definitely not #3 Mahindra or Renault-Nissan or indeed recent Hondas ): how the hell do you compete with MS and HY?

    imo you simply cannot, as everyone has been discovering via the red ink on their and their dealers' balance sheets.

    Unless the regulators level the playing field by amping up emissions, crash safety and several other engineering-spec mandates. And stop forthwith all the huge subsidies some (esp hyundai and maruti S) get in the indian marketplace while many others do not, from state as well as national governments.) A free trade agreement even if 50% like the ones with asean and korea with europe too in autos and auto components is of the essence, else firms like fca, chevy, vw, skoda, ford, volvo and jlr simply will contiue bleeding, getting crushed by the big-2/3 daadaas (at respective price points).
  8. acechip

    acechip Superiore

    This may be a bit OTT, but I know for sure that customers prefer the light, woolly steering to taut, heavy one. Hence Hyundai and most others, most recently Ford have catered to this preference. Though I must say that I found the Ford Figo (current model) sufficiently taut at speeds exceeding 60 kph. The Baleno, too , surprisingly, feels planted and agile at speed. That car is a bit of a contradiction of sorts, really. Weighs a little more than Wagon-R (865 kg vs 825 kg), doors feel decently solid, has acres of space inside, extremely comfortable drivers seat/position, feels stable, planted yet agile and peppy on the road , loaded to the hilt, but it also has has yawning gaps in front structure in the engine bay area, and a lingering doubt about its safety.
  9. V. K. Pasupathy

    V. K. Pasupathy Amatore

    Karur, Tamil Nadu, India
    Grande Punto 1.3 90 HP
    Here are some pics received in a WhatsApp group of an accident involving a Baleno with two fatalities. I feel the build quality is completely off the mark




    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  10. acechip

    acechip Superiore

    Without knowing the exact circumstances of the accident, it would not be right to comment. But something major has caused the catastrophic destruction of A, B and C pillars (the so-called anchors of chassis). Seems to be side-on impact.
    Ganges likes this.

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