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Rumor : Fiat brand to Exit from India report

Discussion in 'Fiat India News' started by gazgotta, Sep 9, 2016.

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  1. gazgotta

    gazgotta Amatore

    Namma Bengaluru
    Namma Bengaluru
    Grande Punto 1.2
  2. amitshedha

    amitshedha Novizio

    cartoq is hardly believable. People like you and me write articles there. Anyway, setting up joint FCA dealers, planning jeep production etc are steps known to us all but cartoq is twisting these facts to produce a different picture. I don't think having a few Fiat cars like new linea, punto and wishfully tipo, alongwith Jeeps won't harm FCA. They can in fact make Ranjhangaon plant as the hub for RHD market exports
    ravikn likes this.
  3. Tony

    Tony Esperto

    Kalamboli, Navi Mumbai
    Grande Punto 1.2
    Fiat my Launch its Urbancross by this festive season as per reports.
    Yeah they have got the Jeep in their house as its a tie up, of course they Wil promote the jeep.
    Fiat lacks commercial that's the drawback of the company, apart from this there is no dealer in Mumbai,
    Seems they might share the fiat with jeep in the same house
  4. zam123

    zam123 Novizio

    Avventura 1.3 90 HP

    Why are they jumping the gun.

    Let me refute with just 2 points on the article.

    1. It says and i quote "Jeep will be FCA’s mainstay brands in emerging markets, including India. The phase out is a possibility as Fiat’s future product pipeline is dry."

    Its absurd to even make this kind of statement when fiat has launched the tipo family recently to replace punto/linea family. Looks like author is not even aware what fiat is up to.

    2. Fiat wont be selling engines forever, Maruti and tata have reportedly making their own engines. After which fiat won't have any contracts with indian auto manufactures. This will free them up to expand into indian markets.

    Considering the two points, fiat will have to expand even more into indian markets considering their global strategy. It would be down right suicidal for them not to.

    From the article it seems these london based automotive agencies have more internal info about fiat future plan than fiat itself. LOL
  5. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    delhi ncr
    Entirely possible, of course. Arguably, even sensible, as i have been analyzing in many of my posts.

    However, imo it depends on (a) whether they can find export markets for rhd (and lhd?) all-new india-made Fiats, or (b) they can share the all-new Punto, new Grand Sienna etc with Tata Motors who after all need a next-gen Vista/Bolt and Zest or (c) they will need to invest in all-new Fiats not because they stand much of a profitability chance in India, because they do not, but because they would want some bread and butter sales and margins for the new Jeep-FCA-Fiat combined dealerships and service centres.

    IMO export potential for Indian Fiats is there but NOT for the mass market, Brazilian new Punto-style cars. Instead, thanks to Brexit India can export henceforth to not-just Australia, Japan, Malaysia etc but to the UK too. THAT would require the more premium-within-mass models (platform mates of the Jeep c-suv) to be part-localized here, models like the 500X, the 500L, as well as the upcoming Fiat Toro-related c-suv twin of the Jeep one, plus the Tipo itself, the Fiat b-suv twin of the for-india smaller Jeep b-suv, and so on.

    FCA could of course instead choose to not just localize 2 Jeeps but also ckd/assemble for re-export: rhd Cherokees and Wranglers+Wrangler pickup, which have large real and potential demand in asia-pac (esp japan, australia+nz, thailand, phillipines, etc) And combine the Jeep/FCA dealers with Alfa Romeo to go for mainstream luxury car sales in India's largest cities, competing with audi, mercedes, bmw and jlr.

    Let's just see. The original Hindustan Times article is, as Mr. Flynn is quoted as saying in the article: 'speculative', and therefore in the nature of gossip and rumour. Sadly, it will 'flare up' and spread in a viral way (link-link-link....), am afraid thereby making its prophesied content more likely-to-happen.
    shanvimal and V. K. Pasupathy like this.
  6. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Linea 1.3
    Someone on WhatsApp said they and Tata should joint introduce models. But looks like Tata is already well off without them. Inspite of difficult environment, they still commit and deliver with a zest and zeal..:joyful:

    For those analysts who are speculating on Fiat, they must know that in Brazil Fiat has already attempted a chassis and platform sharing which VW is now pursuing with their MQB.

    The new Sterling plant inauguration for Jeep or Chrysler products shows Marchionne's focus on Chrysler which is his main game and therefore seems like it's taking his considerable time along with the politics there. Which is like an important aspect for this ship he has made out of FC merger.

    Besides we cannot forget that Fiat powertrain still bets high on internal combustion engines given their open strategy to invest further in R&D for the same. As per them its minimum a decade and half before that changes due to disruptive technology. Also oil companies or interest groups will do everything in their mind to influence policy where ever it matters.

    Meanwhile for Fiat in India we don't know yet if Jeep alone is their mid term to long term plan. Lets not forget Marchionne wants some sort of deal with GM which could be a potential game changer. The GM management wants to yet pilot their own ship which is understandable and it ain't happening without major politics or political interventions. The net effect could be on their global strategy of which India remains a just a small story yet for FCA. And while occasionally we are frustrated it does not matter to them since it probably isn't the right market for them.

    The only question remaining like the Chrysler story what's stopping Marchionne's team from solving problems on shop-floor and mid management to bring in more better rather reliable cars (a real stock taking of situation). Something Maruti customer or Toyota customer can brag about, arguably though for sure.
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
    Turbothinghy, prabhjot and gpunto75 like this.
  7. shanvimal

    shanvimal Amatore

    Linea 1.3
    I agree with @prabhjot . Fiat as a brand is struggling and we are all aware of it.. In fact they are not doing well in many places around the world and not just in India.. Leave the product lines, there are basic changes required in their thinking which they are not ready to do if you want to be hot seller in India.. Getting Jeep in - the positioning and target segment is completely different.. Secondly whatever assembly lines that FCA is introducing for Jeep manufacturing in India, I do not have a faith in their manufacturing team to come up world class products.. You will basic stuffs like find paint mis-matches etc.. In my opinion, they are making another attempt to fail, this time with manufacturing and exporting Jeep.. My only worry is if they pull out of the market suddenly with no support, some of the teamfiatians too feel heat and it will never be able to come back again....
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 9, 2016 ---

    I have just noticed another contrasting report (a day back), where Flynn says - FCA are working on our product development plan for Fiat and the latest trends in transmission would feature in that. I hope the article in cartaq is a mere speculation and really hope FCA should come back with something new for Indian Market :)
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  8. gpunto75

    gpunto75 Amatore

    Grande Punto 1.3
    Something new (products) for Indian market needs ad campaign, and so effective that it regains the trust.
    And ad campaigns means funding the auto media. Remember ford Figo aspire beats abarth by mere fractions of seconds covered by a leading media house. How this happens. Just because FCA doesn't fund auto media regularly. The 200 crore campaign ford has started, seems bang on target (although compromise in build /handling/ ride) with the brand tying up with magazines along with famous racing expert comments and targeting the Fiat customers.
    FCA not focusing on feeding the media, such hammering is bound from all around. And thus all speculations.

    OT; All these speculations, rumors, rants, appreciations are equally enjoyable as their cars. And now this one, as good as a nail biting finish of T20 match. I would have really missed all this, had I not purchased a Fiat. I'm loving this insecurity.
    asimpleson, prabhjot and carl_jhonson like this.
  9. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    delhi ncr

    You see there is no FIAT anymore, there is only FCA. FIAT is a mere, and a localized albeit authentic, historic brand. Localized geogrphically and segment-wise (a function only of its long history).

    i.e, LatAm where they're still#1 (including vans and pickups) and the only profitable firm, with 2 hit new models (Toro, Mobi) in the depths of recession, with the new Punto, new Grand Sienna etc to come next year, also a whole new generation of petrol and ethonol engines (Global Small Engine). Growing very strongly in Argentina, and in Mexcio too, with Brazil likely about to rebound from the bottom of its recession.

    And Europe+Turkey, where the Fiat brand is outgrowing most others for the last 2 years, and now has a fully new and renewed lineup (from the new 500 to the vans to the 124 spider to new abarths.) But here too FIAT is commited to limiting itself to only a few, historic core model-types, with a c-suv and/or a 5+2 crossover to replace the Fiat Freemont aka Dodge Journey being the only likely new models there over the next 2-3 years. FCA (all brands, and including vans and uv-s) is europe's #4 again, ahead of all firms like Ford, GM/Opel, Hyundai-Kia, Toyota, Honda, Nissan and the 3 german luxe names.

    Asia-pacific is different, since it is completely dominated by Japanese and now korean firms, barring China but nowadays including Australia. i.e., FIAT has no chance here as a brand. Accordingly, and with China but also India as a centre: it will be the more expensive, more premium brands that will be the 'growth' brands here, namely Jeep, Alfa Romeo and Maserati plus (in china) Chrysler. This error was made in China where they launched the Fiat brand with the Viaggio and Ottimo. They've now resolved to only offer the 500 style models there and are displaying massive sales growth instead with the new localized Jeeps, with exports too from China likely very soon. Jeep, Alfa and Maserati but esp Jeep has some/great usp that works in 'aspirational' asia, FIAT does NOT, not even in India where it is an old presence (as we now know.)

    Meanwhile they've grown hugely in N America and still are gaining marketshare over all others pretty fast and are the #4 (just behind #3 Toyota) there. Also: with large and rising profitability. There too Jeep and Ram lead the show, alongwith Dodge muscle cars, and (a bit) Maserati and soon Alfa Romeo.

    Point is: NONE of the models of any of these brands in any of FCA's core strength-regions are suitable for local manufacture in India, certainly no Fiats, given the fact that rhd markets for Fiat India exports are very miniscule.

    Hence: it is likely that FCA India will indeed emulate FCA china, and go 'all in' with jeep (+alfa romeo), focussing in India's case on rhd exports, whether heavily localized (e.g., c-suv) or ckd (e.g., cherokee, or new Wrangler.) With a small but vastly better and financially stronger dealer body?

    imo FIAT can, viably and without the ultra-high-cost risk of relative failure to sell-well in India, ONLY offer export-first models, built here. imo There may be NO such models possible at all, other than say semi-ckd models (maybe) like say the 500X+500L (for japan, uk and australia) or perhaps a rhd Tipo hatch crossover or rhd Toro suv+pickup for re-export to AustraliaNZ+Japan+UK as Rams, etc?

    It would indeed make sense for fca ranjangaon to focus their new WCM bronze or better (i.e., very very good) manufacturing (new) production lines for the export Jeeps, the associated Tatas, and of course exports of engines, transmissions, components etc. Tata will deploy one or two all-new car models too, to accompany the new suv-s at ranjangaon. i.e., the already profitable ranjangaon jv company will do great.

    With a smaller, more premium but largely combined fca (Jeep+Fiat+say Alfa) dealer body FCA does NOT need mass market FIAT brand offerings (with very high local content): IF the dealers are fine with just the localized, Jeeps c-suv+b-suv: FIAT can afford just 2 or 4 ckd/cbu-type charismatic, euro-chic models (say the 500X, or cbu 124 spiders/coupes, or the Abarth Punto, a Tipo sedan and/or a Toro suv.....) at d-segment prices.

    i.e., WHATEVER it takes to ensure the new combined dealerships' financial sustainability. If that requires 2 or 3 mass market fiats, they'll have to do so, even if they make no money on them. If Jeep+ALfa prove or seem enough, well then....FIAT can be made into a very-niche, Abarth-style ckd/cbu brand (a lot like Skoda is in India, or say Mini).

    The main object of the exercize would be Jeeps, for export (including 1 or 2 ckd-for re-export models like the new Cherokee or the new Wranglers) and would be vicarious profitability via Tata's Ranjangaon-made own-brand suv and car models. Plus engines (2 litre diesel) and transmissions (9-speed zf automatic, MM amt and/or ddct.)

    Meanwhile FCA will continue to pursue big-merger-type opportunities, especially but not only with Asia in mind, but unless that means Suzuki, 'Asia'=china+asean, NOT Asia including India, since they've already got the Tata jv (and Tata is seemingly commited to blowing up thousands of crores trying to keep up with hyundai and maruti here) here, besides engines+amt etc sales and exports.

    India, contrary to our sometimes nationalistic/patriotic misrecognitions and wish-fulfillments is NOT an attractive market for most automotive oems. It was seen to be, but most have been burnt (ironically FCA least of all, financially), and by-now the shakeout has indeed happened: 2/3 firms have won-out here totally and definitively, namely MS+Hy+maybe a bit Mahindra+even-less: Toyota+(unlikely)a bit Tata Motors non-suv-s. FCA has recognized this structural fact in the indian marketplace hopefully, hence a radical centering on Jeep and exports + the Tata-sharing-suv-s, and against the FIAT brand, is very-likely the correct approach/decision.

    Marchionne (and Manley) are ruthless capital allocators, and they refuse to play dice with models, brand-dna/heritage, segments, etc. They on-principle are opposed to 'loss leader' type attempts: and insist on financial sutainability-of-, as well as likely return-on-investment. IF they see little chance of net positive margins, they simply will not play.

    IMO they're right to see the vanishingly small chance for all-new mass-market Fiats, heavily localized, to payoff. Unless Tata buys the new Punto, new grand Sienna architecture etc from fca, FCA is indeed best-advised to avoid such investments in the FIAT brand anymore. Well, imho.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  10. shanvimal

    shanvimal Amatore

    Linea 1.3
    @prabhjot . Thanks :).. I have little different views on Europe..

    I agree that they are doing well in LATAM and Turkey, noticed even Police and Government uses Linea over there...

    I am aware that new models like 500X, Tipo and Jeeps are helping FCA creating good increase in sales in Europe... But I am not sure if they are on top 4 may be they are still good in Italy http://www.best-selling-cars.com/europe/2016-q1-europe-best-selling-car-manufacturers-brands/. Positioning and expectations are different in this region... They prefer smaller cars usually..This gives opportunity to display the cars coming from their own skin.

    FCA USA has Jeep topping the charts but recent issues with parking created big fuss in the media and this caused bad hit on the brand.. thankfully they are still growing in sales.. I also read few articles where people have bad reviews on even Jeep related to long term stability issues.

    W.r.t Fiat brands, I am continuing to read dealers filing a suite on FCA that they are manipulating the Fiat sales really shows how they are showing numbers., in my own trips, I have never seen Fiats because the expectations in this regions where big cars and SUVS steal the show.. but I agree that their recent collab with Mazda proving to be good one and good reviews have come out for Fiat Spider 124.. Dodge & Chrysler - forget it, they are below average sellers.. http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...-audi-subaru-lead-top-30-car-brands/80808192/

    Leaving ASIA, where Japanese and Korean's dominating.. FCA is not a good brand in Australia too and they have got all bad reviews for manufacturing quality.. All of these some thing that I followed after I bought Fiat.. not sure if these are true.. We have so many Fiat lovers who would be able to share much more..
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