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Performance filters are dangerous for the engine!!!

Discussion in 'Hangout' started by drifter, May 8, 2012.

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  1. sanjay_mugur

    sanjay_mugur Timido

    K&N filter need not be cleaned for first 40,000kms... even then it allows a lot of dust, paper filter is THE thing in filtrations... just replace PAPER filters at regular intervals.. DO NOT try to clean it...it's worth it.......

    all the piston liners will have lines & you will loose compression if dust is allowed....
    1 person likes this.
  2. 1+ to that , anything which is 4-5 microns bearing gets damaged and above 20 microns cylinder/pistons, if some one still vouching for those cotton gauze filter please go and check your self holes in the filter is visible to naked eye. It is almost big as tip of small needle.
    Last edited: May 11, 2012
  3. drifter

    drifter Regolare

    If this is the case then explain to me why Fiat uses cotton gauze filter elements from BMC for the Abarth SS and sells them as an official replacement part. Of course it is quite possible that the Abarth designers are complete idiots who have no clue what air filtration is about. Of course they must be idiots if they are using such a crap filter for their 165, 185and 210bhp variant of the T-Jet engine!

    The pictures have been taken from a Fiat dealer in England. The screen shot is off the online eper, which is the official Fiat parts list.



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  4. I don't see FIAT part number on it.can you please share the part number details.I don't see any manufacturer using cotton gauze filters in India barring few using foam filters like Mahindra.
    As you said FIAT must be real Idiots not to have them here in India.

    I am not talking of the race cars but street legal cars in India,amount of money pumped in a racing event and it's preparation is far more than a people who own a car to go from point A to B is willing to spend.
    Most of the racing engines are rebuilt several times during their life span,there is no need to be flame me for this, I dis agree with you on this point.
    I also respect your right to post your opinion.

    ---------- Post added at 12:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 AM ----------

    This another thread I came across
    K&N Air Filter, the side effects. - Team-BHP

    ---------- Post added at 01:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 PM ----------

    One should not underestimate how much damage unfiltered/poor filtered air can do to an engine.

    I believe that a manufacturer with the massive R&D resources of FIAT are capable of producing a very high bhp output/ltr high reving engine are also equally capable of getting the arithmetic right on the best compromise of air flow/filtration for that engine.
    if there was easy/more BHP/Torque to be had from such a low cost item like cotton gauze filters without any downside of harming the engine then they would have offered it on street legal cars and adjusted the ECU to take advantage of it.

    It's a gambling I believe that the manufacturer has got his sums right and you will have no way of ever knowing if he has or not.
    Last edited: May 14, 2012
    1 person likes this.
  5. jayadev

    jayadev Esperto

    Kannur, India
    Grande Punto 1.3 90 HP
    Guess what kind of filter is this it is OEM and this car have Run 1.2 lakh km .

    I use it in adverse conditions, and the dust you see in the picture is what I do shed off every second week (being little bit of petrol head I had to) .
    I think there is no engine related issues I have come across since day one . of-course there had been lot of differential ,suspension ,radiator related issues and we had spend a fortune for those.





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  6. drifter

    drifter Regolare

    First of all the reason why the manufacturers are not using cotton gauze filters is because of the cost factor. Saving just 1 Paise per car at a 300 working day year Fiat/Chrysler will save 160 Rupees a day. 160 Rupees a day is not a lot of money, but then a 1 Paisa saving is not a usual saving either! I know this from personal experience having been a consultant to the industries.

    When a manufacturer points out the spec sheet the engineers do not have to do a highly technical job for the performance nor do the safest car they can do. They have to find a balance between safety and cost as well as the cheapest way way to get the performance desired.

    A cotton gauze filter involves quite a few more processes than any other filter medium for production and therefore is costing a lot more than any other filter medium bar electrostatic filters that are used in some race classes.

    Additionally there is no money in for the manufacturer when a filter needs cleaning.

    The reason why Abarth uses the BMC cotton gauze filters in the EsseEsse version of the Abarth is performance related.

    Whether the manufacturer has got the sums right or wrong is immaterial. The sums will not be right when it comes to optimal performance. The set-ups are for universal conditions. So, the spec has got to be low to start with. This is the reality of today's car designs.

    The ECU is mapped with a rather conservative map. Added to it is the learning capability, which allows for compensation for all the variations in the parameters affecting engine performance. Ambient pressure changes require different ignition timings and so do humidity, ambient temperature and fuel rating.

    AIRs are not just filter element changes. There is a lot more to it, which I am not going into here for reason of complexity, which would go far beyond the idea of this thread.

    I can safely say that I do not work on opinion rather than experience and facts. Dust in the intake pipe does not necessarily indicate wear. It depends on what the dust is made of, what mass the individual particles have, the amount of dust and the velocity.

    Jayadev's post above my post is proof that the firm statement made by some posters in this thread can't be made in all cases of poor filtration. As a matter of fact he is the only one who has proven that OE filters let pass dust to a degree that everyone considers as detrimental and the engine still runs after 1.2 lakh km.

    Neither the thread on team bhp has any of the quoted links working nor is there anywhere proof that cotton gauze filters have damaged engines due to poor filtration.

    The same way Tony Blair and George Bush have proven that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and went to war because of it, which no one ever found - people have proven that cotton gauze has killed so many engines, but failed to bring the damaged engines.

    Close to the 7000 AIRs I have produced and supplied should have been a good foundation for my enemies to commercially kill me if cotton gauze is so bad. I am still in business without a single claim in all these years. What have you to lose in comparison with me when I am making my claims? I could easily switch to other filter media if I wanted to. But I do not change because I have not seen proof that cotton gauze is detrimental for engines. But I have seen proof of sponges doing harm.

    Bring me facts and I will reconsider. Till then I trust my experience.
    4 people like this.
  7. jayadev

    jayadev Esperto

    Kannur, India
    Grande Punto 1.3 90 HP
    As far as I have observed, No manufacturer (or rarely) is so interested in end users Happiness by giving them best. only One true driving force behind them= "more profit" .
    they have to keep up with regulations and investment returns should not be blocked-sure a gamble.
    If it was concerns about downside of harming the engine First thing a manufacturer would prefer to remove from a car would be catalytic converter which does more harm to an engine than any thing else.

    By restricting less Air into engine and obstructing more exhaust gases, the middle man the engine is suffocated with smoke and high temperature-leaving it with least options and least efficiency which is no brainier but simple science.

    End of the day I believe we are doing more harm to environment as well as our fuel resources.

    This is where I think we end user should wake up and do our part rather than just believe hearsay and what others have thrown at us.

    ""People are reluctant to take new ideas that come from outside the industry and the scientific community."-Somender Singh.
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
    2 people like this.
  8. Great this is turning out to be really good healthy discussion, hope this thread will be of good use for people who want or not want to buy after market filters.
    coming back to the thread topic.

    What about MAF sensor, it is just hot wire based sensor , oil along with dirt sticking to it will it not send wrong signal to ECU about air temperature and there by forcing ECU to correct the fueling to match the wrong number it received? I have seen the issues posted by TFI's in the same forum about clogged MAF sensor.

    Even paper filters do have acceptable air flow capability but they loose the flow once there is lot of dust/dirt but one afford to just replace them once in say 5-7k kms as it costs Rs 200, it would get some 20 of them for the cost of a performance filter OE replacement filter.

    What do you say about the needle tip sized hole that can be found on K&N filter? I haven't seen BMC do you have close up pictures of the filter element?

    When the surface area of the OE filter and after market filter is same, how does after market filter allows more air?


    ---------- Post added at 11:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:55 AM ----------

    Here is one more real world example, owner and other people all beat around the bush like battery, alternator e.t.c
    Sx4 Idle Problem - Page 2 - Team-BHP

    But problem was clogging in the throttle body, they had to use carb & choke cleaner to get the idling issue sorted out.
    Sx4 Idle Problem - Page 3 - Team-BHP

    Last edited by a moderator: May 16, 2012
  9. gurjinder

    gurjinder Staff Member Janitor

    Drifter Peter, we had this discussion earlier as well.

    Let FIAT launch a similar filter in INDIA. Then we'll see.

    FIAT can afford to provide such filters in Europe, not in India. India - where even a human needs to have a foam filter in front of his mouth. Forget cars. :p Come to the Indian Northern Plains during the harvesting season and the season of dusty winds. You'll know what i'm talking about.

    It's universally accepted and proven - cotton gauze do NOT filter as well as foam. Even the quad guys, who run/drag their atv's in sand swear by UNI foam filters. Not K&N, even if you wrap it with a secondary filter.

    3 people like this.
  10. drifter

    drifter Regolare

    The following picture stems from a CAI with BMC CDA element previously fitted to a car that has changed to my AIR and has covered under the same circumstances as the CAI was operated. This car runs with my AIR for a couple of years using cotton gauze and it is driven daily. The amount of time to collect this very fine dust/grime took less than 3 months.

    Gurjinder, I am very well aware what dust is about. I hate air con and love to have my window open in summer (even in hot Ahmedabad). I had at many a times to close my windows while driving in my own cars due to dust unbearable. However my cars have covered enough miles to prove that the filtration is not detrimental. I lost my Fiat Seicento recently in an accident that I survived just about. The engine had 2.46 lakh km on the clock with just under 2 lakh with cotton gauze filters driven in the same environment as they filter in the picture.

    Whether the filtration capacity is less or not with cotton gauze filters than other filters I have never questioned one way or the other.

    What I have questioned is the statements made that they are bad for the engine. I have not come across any credible source that can prove the opposite. Till it is proven that my or any competitors cotton gauze elements are of detrimental effects I will continue using cotton gauze.

    What people seem to forget is that they theoretically can lose some money when things would go wrong with a filter. However, unlike them if these claims were true will eventually lose EVERYTHING i have under British trade laws as well as others. Why do you think I can sleep?

    Coming to the old MAF destruction. I heard from MAFs supposedly destroyed in cars that actually running on MAPs. Whenever we found oil on MAFs it was engine oil. Many a times when the MAF was blamed on cars with or without OE filters the fault codes pointing to the MAF were not correct as on changing the MAF for a new one did not solve the issue. The fault codes came on again.

    And please remember that Jayadev's car covered all these miles with OE filters letting pass what is generally considered as damaging to the engine.

    Everyone not just glancing, reading over and regardless the facts keeping some unproven ideas should think twice with what was so far presented.

    Again at Gurjinder, The reason why Fiat does not supply cotton gauze in India is because they only supply them to Abarth, which you haven't got in India as yet. This has got performance reasons. It has nothing to do with India or anything else other than performance and cost saving on the lower end of the market.

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