1. Introducing the smashing new Team FIAT T-Shirt !! To order yours click here : Team FIAT T-Shirt

music system upgrade ???

Discussion in 'In Car Entertainment' started by dr.kush123, Nov 19, 2013.

  1. RajeshLamba

    RajeshLamba Novizio

    Messages:
    39
    Bhubaneshwar
    Linea 1.4
    @ DRIV3R... Frnd, i read this ice upgrade on net. They suggested speaker upgrade.....Got online...found JBL cs6c components and JBL cx coaxials. Ordered. Reviews mentioned that someone with linea got very good sound.

    Recd the Components today and found a few problems :
    - opened the door (front) Panel. FOund the OEM speaker with RIVETS !! how to remove them ?(first pic)
    - tested the New components by placing on the driver side car floor.
    - sound was a bit shrilli...more treble than bass. very less base.
    - less volume than the stock speakers at same vol levels.
    - If vol incr....distortions....(same with stock..but at higher volume levels)


    i cud not test the speaker by placing them in the door as stock ones are riveted.....
    Pls someone suggest as i dont intend to buy an 4 ch amp to power these speakers....(coaxials are shipped ..yet to be recd)
    Really liked the JBL speaker but they r not sounding the way i expected.
    Also the amp will eat up battery..( we can listen to Stock HU with car swtch off...very less bty drain )

    stock and new ones are sounding different only in base & treble...distortions is still same...(3980 K for components & coax)

    i also hav a1200 w sub installed with a local 1200 w 2 ch amp(connected to rear speaker out from hu)...but i rarely use it as the bass is over killl for the stock speakers..had installed just for the heck of it some time bck.....

    ANy suggestion as i was really excited to get these jbls ..but now disappointed....stock felt better...

    else have to return the speakers....any help will be appreciated :(

    2015-04-20-922.jpg

    2015-04-20-923.jpg

    2015-04-20-938.jpg
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 20, 2015 ---
    50 w continuous & 150w max is the power rating at 4 ohms..if that helps
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2015
  2. RaviHegde

    RaviHegde Regolare

    Messages:
    299
    Karnataka
    14.62°N 74.85°E
    Grande Punto 1.4
    I used a hand drill with 3.5 mm or 4 mm metal drill bit to drill off the rivet head on top of the speaker. Trick is not to push in too much and slowly shave off the head until the flat surface of the rivet is gone. You should drill until the shaft is visible - which means circular surface on top should come out. If you have access to a rotary dremel tool that works even better. But poor me had to use the drill as a substitute. I did not use power drill as hand drill allows me to work as slowly as I want and it allows me to have full control on how much material the drill is eating off. Power drill being very fast works in a jiffy, but very difficult to control the process for such delicate work. Pull the speaker out after the top surface of rivet is removed. However, don't pull it all the way out - because it has the wires attached. Just pull the speaker only as much as to free it from the rivets and then disconnect the sockets before taking it out completely.

    I have upgraded stock speakers (they are silly plastic cheapers, not speakers) to Polkaudio coaxials. Immediately after fitting them I was little disappointed because of distortion. But the distortion was not there when I had held the speakers outside. Distortion started only after I fitted the speakers in the door panels. Stock speakers were not causing distortion because they are really bad in reproducing low frequency. Door panel and the silly weather seal (yes, they call it that but is is a useless piece of plastic sheet which I discarded) started vibrating when the Polkaudio speakers started producing low frequencies much better than stock speakers. Then came a fairly expensive and time consuming and difficult job of dynamatting the door panels. I bought a Dynamat bulk pack from their distributor in Bangalore and did the work myself. Therefore I have done it exactly the way it has to be done without skimping on the material as many commercial damping job people do. After that no distortion until the hearing limit of my ears. volume controller can go up still, but I don't go higher as I want to keep my stock ears in good working condition for another 40 years minimum! One beneficial side effect is very silent cabin since I have dynamatted both inner and outer walls of door panels and boot door too.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2015
    asimpleson likes this.
  3. johnny

    johnny Regolare

    Messages:
    437
    Greater Noida
    Greater Noida
    Grande Punto 1.3
    @RajeshLamba,

    As RaviHegde stated, you need to drill out the rivets to remove the stock speakers.

    From your post, I get the impression that you are trying a DIY. Unless you really know what you are doing, I will recommend getting the speakers fitted by a knowledgeable installer. It will be a good idea to use MDF rings to mount the speakers - it will sort out any 'installation depth' issues. This can come up in case the speaker depth is equal to, or more than the depth of the door.

    For good sound, you will need to get damping done as brought out by RaviHegde. Another point is that inexperienced installers may at times fit the speakers with the wrong 'phasing' - speakers have a positive & negative terminal. If the phasing is incorrect, you will lose out the bass totally, and the speakers will sound bad. The phasing becomes even more important when you are fitting compos, because they have a crossover box & the tweeters. All items must be phased correctly. Speaker wires have a black line on one wire to help with the phasing problem. Incorrect phasing is a very common problem.

    Regards
    Johnny
    asimpleson likes this.
  4. RaviHegde

    RaviHegde Regolare

    Messages:
    299
    Karnataka
    14.62°N 74.85°E
    Grande Punto 1.4
    Thank you very much johnny for bringing this up. To make things little more complicated stock speakers don't have +/- marked on them. New speakers I bought had +/- marked on the speaker connection tabs. I had to do little trial and error to figure out the +/- of the wires in the door panel. What I did was connect the speaker and listened. When it sounded crappy I swapped the wires. That told me which wire is + and -. After that I used the same convention for other speakers too. Even then I used the balancer to turn on only one speaker at a time to ensure (by listening to the sound quality) all are connected with proper phasing. I closed the door panels only after ensuring everything is good. FIY - I was driving around for few weeks without door panels to test and ensure things are good. Only then I closed the door panels. These are the exciting, interesting and rewarding things about DIY :) You can do things exactly the way it should be which an installer doing it in a hurry may miss (sometimes by mistake, sometimes intentionally to save time or out of sheer laziness or chalta hai attitude). For example I gave a good amount of damping around the speaker mounting and mounted the speaker on a layer of dynamat to reduce any vibration in mounting area (which is very common problem). Used spring washers under the mounting nuts to ensure they don't loosen because of vibration. For added safety even applied some sticky goo from the dynamat on top so that they don't come loose on their own under any circumstances! Which installer will take so many precautions? DIY is good - but do your research before you embark on the journey. Have some basic tools. For example - new speaker mounting holes may not align with stock holes. What will you do? Need a drill to drill holes to match new speaker. So you need some basic tools before you start the work. Better if you have a fellow DIY crazy guy around to borrow some of the tools, or to help you in case you ended up in a situation when you don't know what to do next or how to solve a problem. Posting the query on a forum like this will get you lot of help. Take the risk and enjoy your speaker upgrade project!
    asimpleson likes this.
  5. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    3,000
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    An often perplexing thing is the excess signal wire touching the driver from behind. This can irritate and put one in a fix making one think that the driver (cone) has given away. Please remember that crossover setting within the Headunit are even more important when co-axials are involved. For components you cannot mess things much since passive crossovers will split the highs for the tweeters and mids for the main mid-range driver. The problem happens when muxed signals lower than 80-60hz are sent to these mid-range drivers (also applies to component mids). They will DISTORT. Setting low pass and high pass is important. And the primary thing a tuner installer does as soon as installation finishes. That is also why audio-freaks like active headunits which take care of all channels and crossover-points via the HU in a discreet manner.

    So how does one achieve this or something similar on a factory HU? Of-course for those willing to invest in amps will also need 'good quality' hi-lows for line level to RCA conversion. And those who absolutely don't want to invest in amps but still want to reap the benefits of splitting signals should definitely consider investing in an electronic crossover, something similar to this -
    http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_6359_AudioControl-LC6i-Gray.html

    And there is no substitute to sub-woofer. The triad of Highs, Mids and lows cannot complete without this. Tweeters should not handle mids, and Mids cannot/should not handle Subs.
  6. RajeshLamba

    RajeshLamba Novizio

    Messages:
    39
    Bhubaneshwar
    Linea 1.4
    Thanx ravi n johnny...yes.. was trying a DIY. do all my stuff as diy.got a drill also :) ...where did u get dynamat and whats the amount used and cost of the same ?
    So can those jbls 50 w rms be run by a 30 w rms (One ch) ?

    and yes jbl was vibrating and causing the door also to vibrate...and any idea if amp will eat up more bty as compared to stock hu...if i use hu when car engine is off////

    will dampeneing sort out the distortion issue or only option is a 4 ch amp......? Dont want to change the HU..
  7. Maddy79

    Maddy79 Amatore

    Messages:
    71
    Hyderabad
    Hyderabad
    Grande Punto 1.3
    Dampening will eliminate door vibrations to good extent,but not 100%.
    I did DIY (Speaker upgrade+Damping) for all doors & Hatch.
    Got Kicker (coaxial) for all doors 6.5 front and 5.25 rear(I let the stock tweeters do its job), observed considerable difference w.r.t stock speakers.
    Both highs & lows sounded better than stock.
    Initially I did a speaker change and volume upto 7-9 was good, further increase in volume made the doors vibrate.
    Dampening will act as a filter which will cut certain frequencies flowing either from inside or from outside (external/road noise).
    I tested it up to volume 16 ( I listen to max 12),music sounded much inside the car and vibrations reduced to good amount.
    Approx 2kgs got added to each door which make them heavy.
    I bought a Dampmat box (9 sheets).
    -------------------------------------------------------
    For DIY,
    1) Use a metal specific drill bit for ease of removing rivets.
    2)If you are cutting the existing socket , do mark red/black with insulation tape ( I did it to avoid confusion) or write down color code for each door.
    3)Try to use a thin (I used 12mm,needs a custom size & shape for a plush fit) MDF wood for speaker support.(I also added a rubber layer (cut from motorcycle tube) in between MDF spacers and door for further damping.
    4)Damping: Try it with a newspaper for required shapes inside the door panel and then cut the dampening sheet based on your requirement.
    Try knocking the door from outside and hear the difference in sound and apply accordingly.
    5)I used small (Dampmat)pieces to patch inner panel (panel which holds the speaker), which gave it extra strength/weight. Don't cover the entire panel just by applying uncut sheet on its surface.
    6)If possible try to add a layer to the door pads ( I added a layer of carpet/felt material)
    7)Also check gap in between (speaker--Door pad) & (Speaker--Glass).
  8. johnny

    johnny Regolare

    Messages:
    437
    Greater Noida
    Greater Noida
    Grande Punto 1.3
    Most of your queries have been answered. The point about lower powered amp driving higher powered speakers is a non issue. Most amps (especially the integral amp of the HU) are really rated only for about 75 to 80% output. When you crank up the volume beyond this, the AMP will distort. This distortion causes the speaker to distort, and in an extreme case can result in damage to the speaker, and even the amp. So, first rule is not to crank up the volume beyond 75 to 80%. If you want louder sound, then install an amp with enough juice - the 75 to 80% limit will normally also be applicable to this amp as well. Having speakers with higher rated power will lessen chances of speaker damage due to distortion. In case the speakers are not very efficient, then a lower powered amp will not bring out the true capability of the speaker. But, as I said, this is not really an issue.

    If you are planning to fit an amp to your stock HU, be aware that the HU does not have pre-amp out. So, you will have to connect the input of the amp to the speaker out of the HU - not a very good solution. using a hi-lo converter is the only way out; personally I am not in favour of this solution. Many forum members have done this; you could check with some of them.

    Regards
    Johnny
  9. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    3,000
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    You are confusing distortion and vibration, which are two different aspects. Dampening does not take care of distortion. It helps by-
    cutting down external noise by a few dbs. It could even damp the road and perhaps a bit of engine noise making the audio more clear sounding. Also crudely speaking creates a cushion from sound waves deflecting all over the inner shell of the door. Distortion happens if you re-read my earlier post again, due to non-tuning or non-splitting of signals appropriately. Or as mentioned by others also possible due to wrong wiring and such issues. Rattling will happen if loose screws or proper packing including something like plastic or mdf spacers are not in place where needed. The drivers you have brought are technically supposed to be run directly by HU. But amp will help in providing sufficient power to the speakers should you choose one, and YES will make these speakers perform better too. Bass could be overpowering perhaps the speaker power. Please make sure you turn off the subwoofer and guage the volume levels from the HU directly and reduce bass volume (gains via amp) to more suitable levels.

    Also please check the ohm rating on your speaker drivers. You will need to install amp so it does not run at 2 or 3ohm where your speakers are rated at 4ohm load capacity max. That alone can cause distortion or permanent damage to speakers and rarely also to amps.

    EDIT: do you have passive crossovers in that box. The pic does not show one..
  10. RajeshLamba

    RajeshLamba Novizio

    Messages:
    39
    Bhubaneshwar
    Linea 1.4
    thnx jonny :) valuable bit of learning...

    @asimpleson,... u see those bundle of yellow wire.. that has a black taped thing in between ...from where a pair for speaker and a pair for tweeters of wires is seperated. i believe that might be the crossover of whatever kind.

    i am not running the components with a amp. the amp i mentioned is mostly switched off. i dont use it.

    will try reducing the bass using eq settings in HU..lets see what happens...
    else a return shipment to amazon !!!!!!!!!!
    i'll better replace my broken tail light glass :) with the refund money

    thanx a ton for the assistance....

Share This Page