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MJD :Engine tune and EGR

Discussion in 'Engine Compartment' started by Sat-Chit-ananda, May 14, 2012.

  1. Reason why manufacturer detunes in India is to take care of the oil drain period,air filter cleaning, for example Vista and Swift pack more punch than Punto but they are serviced at 5-10K kms,fiat has kept he load on engine to minimal where in it can work fine even with clogged air filter as turbo doesn't induce high boost and FIAT thinks semi synthetic oil will last 15 K Kms with current state of tune.
    This also could be a condition put by TAT management to reduce the number FIAT cars coming to their service centers.

    Toyota is playing even super safe with their engines,already they have got the name as many of Innnova are ruuning fine after 4 lack kms.

    I am told VW is playing a lot with the maps to adjust to the Indian conditions , as maps are updated every 3-6 months!! a tuner told me after some time it will be difficult to see Two Vento's having same performance or consistency in FE.
  2. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    There is definitely some problem. Take your car on ramp, remove the engine guard and inspect every point of oil leakage.

    If there is no trace of oil leak in engine bay and still your oil levels are dropping then you better check your piston rings.

    Secondly check the PCV valve circuit and ensure there is no extra oil oozing from there.

    ---------- Post added at 11:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 AM ----------

    All of the above is just pure speculation. Sorry to say this BRO. There is nothing as such.

    Depending on your use i.e city/highway or dusty/non-dusty environment you should service your car.

    For example i drive 99% in city. So i change oil sooner on all my cars. When there was construction work near my area my filter used to get clogged every 4-5k kms. So i used to clean it / replace it.

    Maruti has a company policy to service every 5k. Fiat 15k etc.
  3. I stand by by what I wrote, as well I respect your opinion but I would like to term it as living in denial.
    Basically if you disputing the facts that Innova is has detuned Engine or Volkswagen has been updating maps a lot, i call that as denial of the fact.
    When car is tuned to pack more punch it does more than a detuned engine,in terms of torque,acceleration, such stuff along with city traffic will take toll on the OIL.

    If you have used Swift ( have used it for over two months) moment air filter is clogged there is black smoke coming out the tail pipe at normal driving RPM's,where is Punto similar sized filter even though clogged at the same level doesn't emit black smoke. it becomes different when remapped so not commenting on remapeed car.
    So Swift has 30 K kms EGR clean where as Punto doesn't have it, it is not just the company policy but what is the quality of the oil used and state of tune plays major factor.also the revenue for the dealers they get more money in doing 5K interval services than 15K.
    But with FIAT real estate is an issue for TATA and step motherly attitude, hence they might have forced the FIAT to go for 15 K service, i might agree with you here on speculation but logically i believe it is true,by looking at the sedate tuning done on our beloved cars.
    Basically you did not say much different that what is said although there is disagreement on few.
    Last edited: May 21, 2012
  4. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    Yaar, now what can i say more? In your earlier post you said Vista packs more power than Punto and this is because Fiat detuned the engine?I dint say a word about innova being detuned or vw changing maps - they might be as you say, but i cannot comment as i dont have facts about it. But having worked with fiat for 2 years i know the facts in and out. FYI- Vista and Punto have exactly same engine and exactly same Magenetti Marelli ECU. In the engine shop there is is no differentiation. The whole lot for vista is dispatched to Tata plant in pimpri and manza and linea engines are sent to assembly lines in ranjangaon plant itself.When both engines are same ECU is same with same map, how can you claim its tuned differently ? Regarding EGR cleaning, how many kms do you have on your odo? have you ever seen opened EGR on MJD done 20k kms? I had opened my EGR and intake last week, you would have shocked to see the sad state. If you dont believe me ask Amogh, we opened his car at 25k kms and the EGR was fully clogged. Now same is the state with Kedar Bendres punto and also Trons linea. Ask them about it. They have driven my linea which has fully cleaned EGR and intake + cleaned intercooler + replaced turbo pipes + OIL CATCH CAN added to avoid clogging. They were surpassed to see how quicky and punchy my linea is. FIAT has no schedule for EGR cleaning but Maruti have kept the schedule. I will say they are smart. Maruti was using mineral oil in their MJD(DDIS) so they kept 5k as service interval. Maruti gets its 30% profit in servicing the vehicles. So its company policy. Nothing related to tuning. Ok let me further give you insight of Swift diesel engines. They are no different than punto engines. Fiat is supplying same punto engine to maruti and the deal is 1 lac engines per year. and along with these engines same magnetti marelli ecu is also supplied. The latest development to this is - Fiat will send these to CHINA and Suzuki has decided to use its CHINA centre as distribution of DDIS engines to all the areas. Swift is punchy due to its low weight and long gear ratio. To Conclude - i am disagreeing only to the wrong belief of yours that vista and punto engines are different or fiat detuned engines and tata and maruti dint etc. I would say dont even co-relate service policy of these companies to the tuning.
    1 person likes this.
  5. I am not saying they are different engines but certainly there is difference in the fueling(part of tuning) ,just observe the idling fueling rate in Vista and Punto you will know what I am taking about.
    My car has a touch rich fueling and i am having near silent cabin,FIAT did change the map in 2011 Models they sound different accelerate quicker it is not just reduction of 60 kilo's that did the magic.

    My car has done 35K on odo.I would blame the clogging on the quality of fuel to some extent.regarding EGR it's been made dummy in my car so I will not worry about it.

    I can show you my car if there is chance to go to FIAT plant again some time.I will drive down to Pune.

    Last edited: May 21, 2012
  6. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    Fiat has not changed map is 2011 cars. I have confirmed this from Engine Shop experts whom i know very well as well as during recent meet we checked so many cars by hooking the scanner and there is not a 0.1% difference in the map. All the ISO codes and homologation nos too remain same. This was also proved by one linea in which manufacturing was 2011 but ECU program date was same as mine :)

    Tata has no business of tuning VISTA engine with Magnetti Marelli. Fiat directly supplies engines to them. They just fit them onto VISTA. on Manza they dont even fit them, Fiat fits them on MANZA.
    So its just your feeling that VISTA idling is different. There is no difference in fueling part.

    My Linea idles different than TRONS linea. Mine has nil vibrations, very minor noise. Trons even with new oil has vibrations and more noise.
    So is fueling part (tuning) different in Trons and my Linea, or mine or kedars 90hp? -------------- NO

    Apart from this i would love to understand how did you make your EGR dummy.

    I am very much interested to know this. Because whenever we tried to dummy the EGR we used to get engine check light within 20-25kms of running.
  7. sungoa2010


    I was just reading above discussion and got this confusion. Please clarify.
    1. The max power and torque of Punto 90 HP and SX4 are different. If all the cars have same tuning why they are different?
    2. SX4 has 0-100 kmph 13.1 sec. But does punto 90HP has the same figure? Remember SX4 is 100 kg more. Is it due to gear box? In that case why the max torque is different in them.
    My knowledge in this subject is based on forum and looking forward to get it clarified.
  8. Okay, Swift also has the same Magnetti Marelli ECU but has different state of tune, if you want to find out how different they are just do ECU reset it clears the learned values goes to default and try driving the car they feel different.with default map response is second gear was lot less in my car as against a 2011 76 BHP model car.

    With respect to Vista there is some change in the tuning as car responds better pre 2011 Punto's, look at this video in 5th gear with a same C 501 gear box Vista revs beyond 4000 RPM but my Punto has rev limiter at 3500 RPM. max speed I can reach is still 160 km/h vista goes beyond 170 in stock map.

    With Remap I have better acceleration then Vista all the way upto 160 kmph.

    TATA indica Vista Top speed 170 km/hr - YouTube

    But in 4th gear I can rev up to 4500RPM, so do you still think the maps are same?it is not just the 60+ Kg less weight that is contributing to increased rev limit in Vista.

    My car is remapped by Siddarth, during the first map I had only asked for little peppiness to added from 2K RPM to 3750 RPM although there is rev limiter 5th gear at 3500 RPM.
    I was happy with it initially, but I had to get the battery disconnected for shock absorber work and that created rich fueling issue.

    All these modern ECU only have initial reference to the actual map but as it learns the driving and conditions it will build it's own temporary maps to which the look ups are done.It would take about 100-150 kms of uninterrupted run to get it right by ECU.
    Again is few days it was back the way I wanted it, but Siddrath wasn't happy with it, so he customized it again and did a EGR deletion in the ECU.
    I was skeptical initially but my doubts were proved wrong as even during the first cold start in the morning i am not seeing the black smoke, I am not sure what it had to do with EGR.I noticed acceleration was lot smoother than before.

    Next is FE has increased by at least 10% after the second map,as you said some FIAT cars can be noisy than others and mine was one of them.
    When i told this Siddharth, he changed some values in fuel at idling map and acceleration map,due to which after a proper warm up my car is near silent as a petrol car until 3K RPM.talking to different tuners most of them are of opinion that EGR is causing more bad than good.
    I am currently checking with Siddharth if the rev litter can be set to 4000 RPM instead of 3500 in fifth gear.

    below is the extract from Wikipedia
    "In diesel engines by feeding the lower oxygen exhaust gas into the intake, diesel EGR systems lower combustion temperature, reducing emissions of NOx. This makes combustion less efficient, compromising economy and power. Diesel EGR also increases soot production, though this was mitigated in the US by the simultaneous introduction of diesel particulate filters.[6] EGR systems can also add abrasive contaminants and increase engine oil acidity, which in turn can reduce engine longevity.[7]

    Though engine manufacturers have refused to release details of the effect of EGR on fuel economy, the EPA regulations of 2002 that led to the introduction of cooled EGR were associated with a 3% drop in engine efficiency, bucking a trend of a .5% a year increase.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2012
  9. ENKI

    ENKI Esperto

    Lol..!! Are we trying to mentor FIAT on their MJD's, servicing intervals, mapping etc. etc.
    Our base for the argument is because "Maruti" & "Ta Ta:bye" does so.
    That nothing but raiding your pocket. I never felt even 15000 KMs are sufficient for servicing. It never lacked outright grunt or FE part @15000 KM instead performing best. If there isn't enough dusty condition in north India, where it is India?
    Yes, at 10000 KMs i did treated the air filter with pressurized air for 2 mins, that's it!
    I think it could have gone another 10000 KMs before it really felt any need of service:mrgreen:
    Let's do as FIAT says. That 5K-10K is nothing bu denting your pocket. There is more margin in this customer service than selling a car actually. Count it...
    Lets keep father & an illegitimate son well spaced here.
    Vista, Swift does nothing. They aren't built for to keep up with those extreme speeds, hence most of the juice is fed by the time of 130-140 km/hr.

    Sun, Punto 90 HP does 14.1 sec. It's official timings for non 2012 FIAT's. 50-50 kg lugging is nil for MJD's. With 5 hefty people on board, I hardly felt any difference in acceleration although engine works harder, no doubt.
    180 is a breeze. For me the top speed is something which one can climb to whenever he wants to & comes in a snap. No highways, just 1 Kms of so so stretch with floating traffic & throttle it. 90HP never waits till 180 km/hr, no hesitancy but in a single breath. That's what i call top speed. Anything above is hard-work. I doubt if SX4 can do that. That 1 sec advantage is not going anywhere but it has to compromise on the top range.
    For documentation purpose, 190 Km/hr is done deal for 90 HP.
    Do you remember how Q jet Vista was keeping up till 60 Km/hr with 90HP & then 90 HP was suddenly shooting ahead. They have obviously blunted their top range, Ditto!!!. More over Air drag coefficient is best of FIAT cars (0.30), they will make use of that top range like no other car does. That is one of the most significant reason why FIAT cars are so stable at ultra high speeds:p.

    I don't mind 90HPs 0-100 in 20 secs if it can catch 200 KM/hr the way it catches 180 km/hr in floating traffic. That would ful-fill my automotive nirvana in only 7L.

    ---------- Post added at 12:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 PM ----------

    I don't know about Toyota but have you seen Indica taxis (non turbo)? They were introduced 10 yrs back to Innova & still favorite for a taxi. I haven't seen a single one less than 250000 KMs.

    I am thinking about posting pics of 3 Palio's which i regularly see in my office underground parking (not palio stile but the old one). The paint job is intact, still doesn't look out of place while parked with new cars. Their owner's are amazed how their suspension is still original (stock form). Yes old khat khat, phat phat in cabin but no where their basics are disturbed. In 2008, My Zen's engine mounts & Aprons started to decay & had to change the aprons. It was risky to such a height that engine was getting misaligned. I saw the engine bay of those Palio's, it was ready for eternity. It's Axles, Suspension arms, gearbox, engine notes, ride isn't off even 1%. I see big play with tires of Honda's, Toyota's from that Era & it's horrible to stay behind such vehicles. Any time tires could separate itself.

    I don't how people define reliability & handover it to Toyota/Honda whatever. They are as fragile as other Chinese stuff. Taxi wala's do nothing but get it repaired & start munching miles again. even 5L Kms is no surprise what so ever. What say on FIAT Padmini's still running with grace on Mumbai roads? Some of them 35 yrs old. our eyes see only what our minds want to see:mrgreen:.
    I don't need to know what would happen to Innova if it jump a big looping breaker more than 1/2 mtr thickness@160. I had multiple moments in my 90P more than 5 times now. Not all @160km/hr but pretty high speeds. If it would have been a Toyota, i don't see a future for Innova/Etios/Qualis what so ever. FIAT's are insanely solidified stuff so are it's engines.

    I look for endurance instead of reliability. I don't know what comes first but i am sure Reliable (hold up under ideal conditions?) is of no damn use for me. I can't imagine Reliable stuff instead of endured 90HP, it would have dented my pocket by at least 1L if not more:lol. So forgiving FIAT cars are.
    Do i have any doubts about their endurance? hell no:cool!!
    Are they reliable? don't know but i don't care either:mrgreen:
    Last edited: May 22, 2012
    4 people like this.
  10. fiat_fan

    fiat_fan Amatore


    Are you sure? :-? but while driving I feel 2011 & 2012 puntos are quicker than previous year models..

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