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Medical Science - Discussion

Discussion in 'Hangout' started by RaviHegde, Mar 15, 2015.

  1. rusticnomad

    rusticnomad Amatore

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    @prabhjot :

    "Eat Less Work More" failed to provide any benefit in cardiac events for diabetics. This study was designed for a 13 year term on over 5000+ sample size -- based on ADA diet of 55-60% CARBS (a criminal high carb diet that's being pushed to everyone, irrespective of medical history) , but looking at the failure of the study at 10th year time-line, it was silently dumped 2 years ahead of schedule and after wasting $120 million to prove that "Eat Less Work More" will benefit:
    http://www.forums.dlife.in/threads/high-carb-diet-experiment-fails-on-type-2-diabetics.17/

    There's a great video by Gary Taubes on this which also explains that eat less work more simply doesn't work, besides explaining that just eating more and burning less is not the cause of obesity:



    Dr Peter Attia (of eatingacademy.com) , an engineer and a surgeon also holds the same view what Gary has finally concluded in his lecture above. It's HIGH INSULIN in blood which is the culprit and High Carb == High Insulin load.

    In addition, there's also a recent study which says one cannot Outlive a "Bad diet" ie "Carbs and Sugar" which is killing and has nothing to do with activity:

    http://www.forums.dlife.in/forums/diabetes-research-news.22/
    asimpleson likes this.
  2. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

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    @rusticnomad

    what may be true of diabetics has no bearing on the general, though not law-like, fact that higher rather than lower levels of physical activity are helpful for strength, stamina, immunity, longevity, psychotherapeutics etc.

    No medical scientist or researcher or doctor ever says that their prescriptions are shorn of the 'all else equal' condition.

    There are so many different mechanisms and processes at work, biochemical, biophysical, biosocial, genetic etc, a number of them as yet poorly understood, especially in terms of how they interact with each other, even in 'ideal' conditions, let alone in particular individual cases.....that generalities are hard to come by.

    The only valid generality is: IN THE LONG RUN WE ARE ALL DEAD. It is vain to seek 'good health' howsoever defined, too much, as a cult.

    Besides: there is so much added to our well-being by fats, sugars, carbs, alcohols, caffeine, nicotine, cigarettes etc (pleasure, sensual delight, excitation, sociality, good taste, good fun, stimulation etc).

    Doctors are usually not puritanical/brahmanical about health and diets etc as are lay folks who labour under the vanities of good health, longevity, painlessness etc. Doctors are too, all too, knowing about the deathliness of life to care that much, besides their profession and income accrues from death-in-life (dis-ease).

    It is the propagandists (everyone from pharma companies to corporate hospitals to insurance firms to lifestyle fetishists to new or old-age spiritualists, puritans and romantics, such as Steve Jobs) who muddy the waters for the medical (scientist/doctor) profession.

    "Eat, drink and be merry...tomorrow we will die" (and do trust and consult good doctors along the way)!:p
    Tornado likes this.
  3. rusticnomad

    rusticnomad Amatore

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    @prabhjot

    Well, we who follow LCHF diet for self managing diabetes stay away from doctors, dietitians, nutritionist when it comes to diet because all peddle the same diet -- High Carb Low Fat :(

    We follow our medical reports very meticulously and practically see how numbers have improved, drugs have reduced. :)
    asimpleson likes this.
  4. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

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    @prabhjot we dont even use some thick grade of oil meant for race engines and kill the engine while extracting the fun and pleasure and performance out of it in the short term. For an otherwise unbiological and therefore lifeless thing. Yes the cost of owning something for practical reasons is a big reason here for many if not all (affordability). Likewise death of a near and dear one comes at a cost; at the risk of sounding shallow and materialistic I say this. It probably cannot even be justified properly in quantifiable terms. Those extra years of life esp. for a key individual (keyman as one industy calls it) with dependants could alter the course of life for individuals and families and businesses alike.

    Ofcourse one can choose to be a Yogi, Bhogi or Rogi, that is if one cares to undertand the difference here.

    @rusticnomad, you better be aiming towards a great TED talk at some point with lots of data at hand and some real practical case studies. Nevermind if it is the shortest of its kind. Keep up the great work.
    Since you are using the same tools and same/similar methods for collecting data and most SOS supplements or medicines available from OTC pharmacies, there is no reason doctors should not look beyond the 'guidelines' for the betterment of their practice and for the patients too.

    Some will choose their opinions based on larger studies and popular beliefs/biases/myths and will not want to think, also for reasons of time or sheer arrogance at times. There is nothing one can do for people with closed minds and opinions even if the facts and golden findings are there to see. One Can Take a Horse to the Pond but Cannot Make it Drink.

    Kindly keep sharing any important posts and findings of relevance also from dlife, that could benefit TFIans understand and perhaps self-equip. in ways to tackle this condition in the best possible manner.

    Request all TFIans to keep an open mind and read and think about the findings and experiments of some individuals on forums.dlife.in, for themselves and their near ones to lead a largely drug free and energetic life, be it diabetic or non-diabetic.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 1, 2015, Original Post Date: May 1, 2015 ---
    I agree, We, Us or some of our fellow TFIans have ventured into discussing bigger issues, perhaps beyond scope of discussion of this forum with thousands of other aspects, seen unseen to come to one logical conclusion on different aspects of it. There could be arguments right or wrong but we must narrow it down to more relevant facts and discussions that could help this forum/community primarily and other guests as well. Perhaps restraining restricting ourselves in expressing our opinions unfathomable or un-digestable or uninteresting for its readers; no matter if they are the truth at times. To prevent Chaos.

    You are correct. Kindly forgive the topics where it must have sounded like gross generalisations or unfair undue remarks towards the fraternity of which you too are a longtime practicing member of. It cannot always be the "Whole truth".

    Like you said, its (probably) fashionable not on TFI but also among general public or a greater part of it perhaps because there are also so many emotions attached to human well-being and the fact that people need to hold someone accountable on whom they have pinned too much and at times 'undue' hopes on. Doctors are seen as extra-ordinary human beings, highly learned and compared to God/Godliness at various levels. And what happens when that trust is broken or shaken? Ordinary men curse, become violent, or even desecrate that same God. And many/most doctors (not all) are in the 'upper echelon' of social and financial circles does not help their cause and causes more anger and hatred or jealousy too amongs certain sections of society. Its a stereotypical image created also in part by the social medias.

    Just attempting to stating things as they are, not trying to justify things from anyone's perspective. PEACE..!

    @RaviHegde, you need not EXIT from the thread. Do definitely point to your findings or express opinions pertaining largely to hard facts perhaps with examples that you feel could hold more value and present more clarity to the discussions. There is no easy way to alter or shake old beliefs; perhaps we need to present the truth or facts in a more delicate, sliced and fathomable manner. :)

    @Bala, do disagree and come out in defense of the fraternity if and where you feel necessary. Opinions matter.
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
    prabhjot and rusticnomad like this.
  5. rusticnomad

    rusticnomad Amatore

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    @asimpleson --

    Slightly OT, but I would like to quote a case to show how INDUSTRY influences research.
    Taking a clue from Ancel Keys' idea of "Cherry Picking" to prove a hypothesis, the research team, which was involved in the famous Sydney Diet Heart study did something similar, but more CRIMINAL. The criminal (from viewpoint of we diabetics on LCHF) part was unearthed decades after the study was published and this expose was published in BMJ. At least in case of Ancel Keys it was known that he trashed data of 15 out of 22 counties to prove his point.

    The researchers set out to prove that PUFA (Poly Unsaturated Fat -- a fat which still carries down to so called heart friendly oils like Safola, Sunflower, Canola etc) is far superior to SFA (Saturated Fat) -- ie bette for heart health. However, during the course of research, they found the opposite. What did they do? They rejected part of the data and dumped it in a garage and published that PUFA is better than SFA.

    Decades later, few investigative researchers got the tapes from garage, recovered the data set and the cumulative data set proved that SFA is far better for cardiac health. This only shows that PUFA loaded vegetable oil industry's interests wee being safeguarded by researchers. This was a big expose discussed here after mor than 4 decades of original research - http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/the-case-of-the-missing-data-1.1412420

    We diabetics on LCHF have 2-3 TBSP Virgin Coconut Oil as part of our life, mostly preferring to take in black coffee. We don't like Safola, Canola, Sunflower oil for cooking also as they are heavily loaded with PUFA. They a most heart UNFRIENDLY. As for Ted Talk, Dr Peter Attia -- a calculus teacher, an engineer and finally a surgeon from Stanford is doing all the hard work:

    https://www.ted.com/speakers/peter_attia

    There are many doctors who preach LCHF diet. There are many diabetic doctors who live this life. So, it's all out in the open. Problem is USDA's (Politics Of Food) reluctance to do anything that will hurt the grain and drug industry. USDA Food Pyramid failed so they replaced with Plate. But the plate will also FAIL like Pyramid as the focus is still a High Carb Low Fat diet. They remove 2% fat from Yogurt, add sugar and call it healthy. Ridiculous!!!

    As for doctors, they won't change. Too much money at stake:
    http://www.propublica.org/series/dollars-for-docs
    asimpleson likes this.
  6. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

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    Health provider? Spending wealth on health provider as what presuming the wealth (money?) is there to spend, as if that is the highest or should be the highest priority. What is adequate wealth here? What kind of life insurance and what profile of a patient financial and other risks wise are we talking about here?

    I agree to the subtle point you make there at some level, there are no assumptions or generalisations that one needs to make about Doctors, and the professionals too need not about patients either.

    There is a problem with that last bit, life worth 1cr? I think the meaning of the phrase "Health is Wealth" is much more deep and need not be deliberated or 'confined' upon in this manner alone.
    Here is one interpretation of the same which I found after a quick google search. Saved me the trouble of drafting it.
    //Health and Saving Are Intertwined
    In most cases, medical care is not free. When a person takes care of himself, he usually doesn't need to seek treatment as often. That generally translates to a decrease in medical spending, so some people think this phrase means that part of being money smart or wealthy is staying healthy.//

    And there are more here http://www.wisegeek.org/what-does-health-is-wealth-mean.htm
    One of these you could agree to better than the others.
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  7. Tornado

    Tornado Superiore

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    @asimpleson, actually I wanted to point out that greed factor is not that high in the medical profession which is much discussed here and everywhere.
    Docs don't charge that high for saving life or limb or with proportionate to the importance and value of the life & limb. Moreover the amount of charity and sacrifice of family life is high and it cannot be compensated by the so called exorbitant bills.
    prabhjot likes this.
  8. RaviHegde

    RaviHegde Regolare

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    I decided to come back to the thread after I realized I had exit from the thread without making my stand clear.

    I wholeheartedly admit that doctors are very important part of our society. We need more of them (because of health problem explosion we see today) and we need the best ones and the most selfless ones. I am not set out to criticize medical field without any knowledge of field (I am definitely not a doctor though) or for any personal gains. Only intention is showing them a mirror so that they acknowledge the seriousness of the problem in the profession and contribute their bit to fix the problem. I have worked in life science companies for few years and know how drugs are made, the greed factor around drugs, fraud around drugs (and drug patents), fraud around clinical trials, and the spilling over effect of all that into the medical profession. In last few years I was involved in development of at least 2 products related to health care. Now I work closely with doctors for developing a software product for the use of doctors. Therefore to some extent I have some knowledge (better than a layman) of the field and vested interest in the field too. But, that does not make me believe the profession is beyond questioning. Sometimes this questioning leads to monetary losses too for me. For example - my company (I am using word "my" because I own 25% of the company) has decided not to sell our product to a clinic which we believe is into dubious medical practices. Every customer is very important in early stages of a product. But we decided to shut our doors on this one because we felt it is not ethical for us to work with someone who we believe is unethical. We felt resulting business setback and monetary losses are less damaging for us than the damage that clinic will cause to our society in the long run.

    Talking about the ills affecting medical profession has become sort of crime now. First reaction from the community when someone criticizes is denial and crying hoarse that the whole world ignorant about medical field is against such hard working professionals out there with the mission to save lives. That does not help anybody. It is for our own good to listen and correct ourselves when we hear criticism. I present some hard facts here. All this data is from countries with capability to collect relatively accurate data in health care industry. Situation is far worse in a country like India where lack of clear data collection facilities does not allow us to dig deeper into the problem. I am saying that because if the problem in developed countries with stringent checks and balances is so bad, the problem in our country is probably far more serious. Doctors - please see what you can do to contribute your bit to reduce this problem instead of saying don't worry, it is not that bad here.

    About greed:
    About saving lives:

    I hope doctors admit these serious problems and work towards eradicating them from the field. Until then as patients the best we can do is to take care of ourselves as much as we can and follow alternate health care systems with less problems so that we can also help to reduce the seriousness of the problem in mainstream medical field!
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  9. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

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    @Tornado, high and low charges is not merely a perception when it leaves a hole in the bank esp. when certain critical ailments and cost of it becomes overwhelming yet compulsory for patients and their relatives. I am talking about the masses in a country such as ours. Ofcourse, not all of this problem is created by health care professionals. They are in many cases bound to take the charges not by will but largely due to the scales of operations and economics of it. The industry suppliers and businessmen doctors in it have propogated/inspired malpractices atleast a big part of it also due to ginormous capital expenditures (infrastructure and equipment) and also the recurring costs of maintaining a medical facility. Similar things also apply to dentistry and most other health care profession branches. A big part of the issue is heavy duty structure on such capital equipment both new and used imported from abroad. Now this is the part which is not justification, but still understandable, why sometimes exhorbitant fees are charged when compared to other hospitals who offer cheaper or subsidised rates which many people cannot choose for issues of time (emergency) or travelling. Not that many hospitals like or entertain patients going out for cheaper CTs, MRIs and PETs when they have those under their roofs. Neither can the patient or relative of patient contemplate these moves for the most part for lack of bank balance. Insurance can only take care upto a certain extent in certain life threatening prolonged critical illnesses. Insurance is not cheap either for the average Joe, if one wants to be fully covered for any and all medical issues known to man.

    Now there is also the problem with the patient/relatives. They could go to the cheapest healthcare facility for lack of funds but if there is an iota of hope for their near ones. These same patients would even at times sell their homes and kidneys too in a last ditch effort to try the most expensive option or facility too. Not so long time ago a case from Hyderabad (of a know individual not related to us still) with Cancer ailment was given the best health care the relative could find and afford. They could manage to spend way over one cr. of money. Now an advanced staged cancer could have been well managed for reducing patient's pain and suffering perhaps within a few lac rupees too. But here the patients relative wanted to spare no effort and hire the best facility available in the largely false hope that it could go into remission. And it did not.

    Now don't the doctors know and (counsel) or try to educate the patient's relatives about the least hopes, they do. But if the patient's relative insists on trying on the 0.001% chances option the doctors helped them spend with all the options available at their facility. The managements in many cases in India and perhaps abroad too have fired junior and senior doctors who have tried to be ethical and stood their ground against the appeasement of patient's relatives unrealistic demands. They refused to sell hopes when they knew 100% that the chances are zero.

    There are consultant doctors esp. in many bigger cities who charge rates per visit that could well surpass average visitation charges that are big even by western standards. A top/topmost neurogolist in Mumbai back in 1995 had the visitation charge for 20-30 mins. of nearly 10k. That ofcourse did not cover flying or travel charges across India and possibly ofcourse across Asia. :) It was said that he hardly had time to visit all the patients needing his urgent attention and willing to spend even for an opinion, a final word. Cannot image what he must charge today. Could the hospital managements also comprising chiefly of qualified doctors not enroll, tie-up or suggest such celebrities, and be rather blunt to patient's relatives that any good experienced specialist of that relevant field could do the job for peanuts compared to those charges I just mentioned. Where is their nobility in all this?

    @Bala these are isolated examples if you do read this. No way is it out of spite against the medicine industry or doctors. This could perhaps be just a very small percentage of the exploitation stories and angles on this issue I have with me. But it's definitely not the whole story. Its like a wise saying. There's your story, there's my story and then there's the truth..! :)
    I just wish you were at Mumbai, and associated with the local IMA or AMC local chapters, we would have a lot to agree then. Get a first hand view of the sheer exploits and the scale of things (malpractices of various kinds) and you would be in for a shock of a lifetime incase you think these are blown out of proportion comments.
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
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  10. Tornado

    Tornado Superiore

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    See, receiving commission for referring patients is unethical. And docs who do that should rather charge the patient directly for suggesting correct treatment & a right person to carry out that. After all, all the skill & science related professions. run on the basis of the the deficiency of the knowledge on the part of consumer .
    For example :Architect suggests an intellengt way of space management without needing you to purchase a extra SQ ft. And charges for that.

    One more big problem of our society is that it thinks docs are gods & the patients are devotees but practically & by law patient is a consumer & docs are shopkeepers.


    Allegations that most of the docs conduct unnecessary tests is false. (There are very few doing that because if a patient goes to consumer court the doc needs to justify it ) . Many test are done not only to diagnose but also to exclude a disease.
    Suppose a patient gets headache, doc gives him a crocin, headache settles down. And story is over.
    In other case, headache settles down , but patient asks the doc, if everything is alright? Is there anything to worry? These questions sound simple but to know there answer one has to undergo MRI, CT, and battery of tests, and if doctor advices them, the patient feels that doc should verbally reassure him without going in to details of his body. And after the scans and battery of test which is often pocket draining, and if the reports says all is well, patient feels that the scans and tests were done just to siphon off the money as no disease is found. But in reality tests are done to answer those simple questions asked by patient and to label the patient as healthy.

    In India, ppl think that docs should label the patient as healthy without going in to details by conducting the tests because docs are as good as gods!

    I will submit rest of my opinion later on as I am short of time now.
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
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