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Medical Science - Discussion

Discussion in 'Hangout' started by RaviHegde, Mar 15, 2015.

  1. Tornado

    Tornado Superiore

    Messages:
    677
    Driver's seat.
    Western Maharashtra
    Avventura 1.3 90 HP
    Well, sometimes, we travel in a safe car (eg. benz) and still accident can occur or safety features might go kaput, so are we going to stop calling the automobile engineering as a science?

    Similarly, few medicines or surgeries cure a disease permanently, if the concern doc can't undo the cure and bring back the disease,now, what to call the medical science, a science or not science?

    Before surgery, docs take a written informed consent which explains all desired & undesired ill effects, alternative methods of treatment, and a permission to do the surgery. Patient is always free to deny the surgery and can get all his doubts cleared before signing it.

    But in India, there is a fashion of saying that I signed the paper but didn't read it.!

    As far as Medicines are concerned, Indian law recognises something known as 'implied consent ' which doesn't require paperwork which means that when you go to doctor you give a consent for administration of medicine and it is taken for granted that patient is ready for undesired effects also. But some undesired effects are serious and docs if QUALIFIED in THAT PATHY always(with exception of few) bother to take written consent.
    If the patient feels that doc is not spending enough time to explain the side effects, WRT MONEY HE IS CHARGING patient is free to change the doc. And at large, patient needs to remember that most of the allopathy docs (not all) charge fees ranging from 50 to 200 Rs. a similar cost incurred for hair cut now a days.

    I know a 40 years experienced physician in Pune, sees only 5 patients a day, he spends one hour per patient to explain side effects of treatment verbally and written. He charges Rs 5000 per patient.

    And please remember whatever info on side effects of root canal treatment is on Google is provided by doctors only. Tomorrow, if something mentioned on Google doesn't turn out be true in case of a person,would be apt to stop calling the information technology as a science?
    And Google doesn't know the body(physiology, Anatomy, biochemistry & pathology) of the reader. And reader also doesn't know any thing scientific about his own body, so applying Google info blindly to your own body is not apt. Better to leave that job to the qualified docs. And Google despite not being a doc keeps charging you in the form data bills /second for providing GENERAL info on medical science, so better to spend money on a doc /per second spent. Docs are better readers of the medical info on the Google than a non medico. Believe me, provide the Google links of root canal treatment to a BDS doc and he will explain it to you what is applicable to your body and what is not in a better way than what a non medico can understand on his own.

    And before posting a patient for root canal treatment, written consent is taken about good, dangerous & even fatal effects of treatment (provided doc is qualified).
    prabhjot likes this.
  2. RaviHegde

    RaviHegde Regolare

    Messages:
    299
    Karnataka
    14.62°N 74.85°E
    Grande Punto 1.4
    Yes, that is how it is supposed to be. But very rarely doctors have so much time and patience. So far I have seen only one team of doctors doing that in Aditya Birla Memorial Hospital, Pimpri, Pune. I salute the whole team for the kind of patience, ethics and commitment they have. Once one of the doctors was in an emergency surgery till 1:30 pm. Came to OPD from the OT. Sat there with patients till 3:30 pm without lunch and not in a hurry to push the last patient (us) out. Even at that time she was cutting jokes and talking with a genuine smile on her face. She always used to tell "don't worry, hum hai na". Even after 7 years of that incident I remember her (Dr. Manisha M) so well because of her commitment to her profession. I wish all doctors are like that. Unfortunately it has remained only a wish :-(

    If it really cures no problem. Problem begins when it brings in new troubles (which happens in majority of cases). If the science cannot undo it or reset it then I have a problem with calling that a science. Real science should address the specific issue. Until then it is semi-science, not full science. Unfortunately medical science is not even semi science - it is at a much lower level of maturity than that. Several fundamentals of life science are being turned upside down from latest research. For example - life science believes lot of diseases and health problems are because of the genes we inherited from our parents. One cutting edge researcher says that is not right, our genes are controlled and modified by our beliefs and what we do to our body and mind. See biology of belief by Bruce Lipton:
    .
    Take time to sit through the long video - it is worth it. Step by step Bruce Liption proves what main stream science knows about life forms is still very very minimal. Today's science has lot of wrong beliefs because of ignorance or arrogance. Whatever science cannot comprehend is labelled as quackery and laughed at without accepting the inherent immaturity of science. There is a long time to go before science attains a level of maturity which makes it a real science.

    I should admit I am a non-religious and non-spiritual person. In spite of that my current beliefs are pointing towards Indian system of medicine (mainly Ayurveda) and spirituality is probably lot more mature in addressing many problems of life. I believe a healthy mix of that with current medical science (minus arrogance, ignorance and greed) is the best way forward.
  3. Tornado

    Tornado Superiore

    Messages:
    677
    Driver's seat.
    Western Maharashtra
    Avventura 1.3 90 HP
    Exactly, even text books of Medicines on their very first page call the medical science as a incomplete science and hence expectations from it can't be fulfilled completely.


    The doc from Aditya Birla hospital makes the things difficult for whole medical fraternity. She herself will not take lunch in time and advise others to take it in time so as to keep diseases away!She needs to understand that she is not a God but a normal human being with some extra intelligence & special skills.

    And, why to praise her for not taking lunch in time and seeing a non emergency patient.? Ideally she should have had lunch on time and seen the patient later on, after explaining the waiting non emergency patient about the time spent on emergency and importance of taking lunch in time, patients now a days are also intelligent, they also understand importance of taking lunch on time . This apparently good gesture from her leads the society to expect unduly from all the docs, and when these expectations are not full filled, society is unhappy and outbursts one day.

    Buddy, there is no point in expecting same kind of behaviour from all the docs, because docs are on duty 24 ×7, no matter if the opd shutter is closed. So this not having lunch and sparing that time for opd waiting patient can't be done always.
    asimpleson and prabhjot like this.
  4. RaviHegde

    RaviHegde Regolare

    Messages:
    299
    Karnataka
    14.62°N 74.85°E
    Grande Punto 1.4
    I am happy at least few doctors seem to believe delaying lunch on one day is not going to kill them! I appreciate such doctors who believe addressing patients' discomfort is more important than their own comfort. We can expect something good only from such selfless doctors who stand by the commitment that profession demands.

    Old saying - prevention is better than cure is best option. Stay in unpolluted environment and follow healthy life style which will keep one away from doctors and medicines. It is up to an individual and his/her family to make a conscious choice and execute it.
    asimpleson likes this.
  5. Bala

    Bala Esperto

    Messages:
    1,070
    Villupuram
    I thought that the 24 hour doctor's strike called all through the state on 2 nd May was bad,kind of sadistic.
    What if someone (even if it was me)had a heart attack on 2nd,he would see no 3rd to be revived.
    What if a delivery due on 2nd got complicated and both the lives are endangered.
    Now,I feel that a day strike every month is required for people to not appreciate but to accept that doctors are a necessity as much as electricians and plumbers are.
    If someone is uncomfortable with an electrician and thinks that he gets commission from both the ends,just change the electrician or do it with the help of Google rather than making a writting about what's wrotten and what's not,should follow the same with a doctor too.
    asimpleson and prabhjot like this.
  6. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,441
    delhi ncr
    @RaviHegde

    Please don't take offence. I think the point by @Bala was more about the level of generality, the sweeping nature of the formulations about doctors, medicine, nature, science, etc.

    The best discussions are held at a middle level of generality: not too concrete/specific and not too abstract either? The best Doctors are adepts especially at this middle-level. Neither too philosophical, nor too little.

    Do keep posting such fertile, catalytic ideas on the thread!

    cheers
    asimpleson likes this.
  7. Bala

    Bala Esperto

    Messages:
    1,070
    Villupuram
    When you wrote fertile,am remembered of a patient who had had her first child at 47 years,post menopause.
    I know the doctor did only her job and is no God but if patients do keep cribbing and start being judgemental,doctors would have no eagerness to come to the assistance of patients,even If given a bagful of money.
    asimpleson likes this.
  8. Tornado

    Tornado Superiore

    Messages:
    677
    Driver's seat.
    Western Maharashtra
    Avventura 1.3 90 HP
    Oh! I I didn't knew that she doesn't come across imergencies daily or frequently during opd hours and that matter of postponing the lunch was just a question of one day . In that case, I too appreciate her. Otherwise postponing food every now & then would certainly affect her health status . And no amount of appreciation would compensate the ill effects on her health.

    My comment on her was based on belief that doctors who handle emergencies, come across them frequently /daily and those who do not, send the emergencies to somebody else and load keeps on increasing on the docs who handle emergencies.


    @Bala,I just wanted to justify the title of the thread 'Health is wealth'. If health is wealth then there should not be problem in spending adequate wealth on the health provider. But if a person has a life insurance of say 1cr,and if he
    suffers from a life threatening disease or emergency and a doc saves it. Has it ever happened that doctor has asked or is paid Rs 1cr for saving a life worth 1cr.?
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2015
  9. rusticnomad

    rusticnomad Amatore

    Messages:
    144
    Indore
    Indore
    Linea T-Jet
    Thanks for bringing this up. One baby step at a time, we are growing and defying the general belief that FAT is bad (except Trans Fat) and we are doing just the opposite of what the great guys with flashy degrees recommend -- ie we are following a LOW CARB HIGH FAT diet approach and surprising our doctors. Even diabetics with 20 year history have gone of diabetes drugs (or educed them drastically) and yet attain far better numbers that USDA / ADA dietary guideline with cocktail of drugs can ever achieve. I am myself a diabetic with a drug free life in fifth year as a diabetic.

    Our belief is -- CARBS Kill and it's the USDA's High Carb Low Fat dietary guideline that has made 2/3 US overweight. Obseity, Diabetes,CVD/CHD/Cancer -- talk of anything and it has gone up after Mc Govern committee politically pushed HIGH CARB LOW FAT to become nations dietary guideline. Problem with all these clinical trials , research etc is they set out to prove what will favor the drug and food industry and not the patient. All research is directed toward the next PATENTED drug so that once patent on current drugs expires they have a trillion dollar product ready. And, if some trials don't lead to data that they want, they FUDGE the data like it happened in Sydney Diet heart study or speak a lie like GSK did with Diabetes Drug AVANDIA which killed diabetics with heart attacks. Later they pleaded guilty and coughed up $3 billion in penalty for drug fraud (which also involved Avandia).

    After 6 decades of Ancel Keys' cherry picking study to demonize saturated fat, the world is still struggling to prove that Saturated Fat causes CVD/CHD. In fact many of LCHF diet have also gone off STATIN Drugs.

    I had approached many doctors in my city and at the end he debate either got heated, or they just said -- "We Are Following Guidelines". Needless to say, these guidelines are XEROX copies of ADA guidelines -- ie Eat High Carb Low fat and hen take PILLS as side dish. I happened to take on a doctor online (paid consultation) and in the end he agreed to most of the things that I had to say. Here's the thee-part thread:

    http://www.forums.dlife.in/threads/...-and-the-way-medicare-handles-diabetics.1333/
    asimpleson likes this.
  10. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,441
    delhi ncr
    @rusticnomad

    Everything is relative to levels of physical activity, especially walking, running, lifting, climbing, cycling. No scientist or doctor reccomends either low or high fat, low or high carbs. They reccomend everything based on the ceterus paribus ('all else being equal') condition, the biggest of which is: exercize for work and for pleasure, as routine (by walking rather than using an automobile, etc). No diet, no medicine, and no spiritualist medical/therapeutic practice can substitute for this CARDINAL principle. Which does not mean of course that the physically active will live long and strong necessarily, but chances are.....it's all really about general 'statistically significant' probabilities/chances rather than any sort of medical 'laws'.
    asimpleson and Tornado like this.

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