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Medical Science - Discussion

Discussion in 'Hangout' started by RaviHegde, Mar 15, 2015.

  1. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

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    @prabhjot, you are going to need to simplify this perhaps with examples as to what changes you are suggesting than the ones already presented in the existing system. If you are suggesting more studies and trials than already happening I could not agree more. But having debates on these issues is welcome as far as all sides are given considerable benefit of doubt and reasonable timeframe to see the effects/patterns and establish/find the causes even if the causes are challenged. What should also be noted that lobbies of a particular stream of medicine not be allowed to influence the decisions of governing bodies or given unfair weightage because adequate proofs or the mechanisms to present those hard proofs are not in place.
    prabhjot likes this.
  2. RaviHegde

    RaviHegde Regolare

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    Karnataka
    14.62°N 74.85°E
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    Reductionist science (science which looks at things in isolation, not as an integrated system) is causing many problems. Science will remain reductionist for foreseeable future because integrated systems are too complex for today's science to analyze and understand. One example: A person close to me had been suffering with endless sequence of dental problems. Had spent considerable time of life on a dentist's chair. As a result had lost considerable amount of money and half the number of teeth nature had given. Latest and greatest tooth paste did not help in controlling the problems. Doctors had suggested gum surgery (like everything else in medical practice no assurance of results) or remove the teeth and implant artificial teeth. Both were very intrusive, so this person rejected them. Out of sheer frustration this person started using a tooth powder recently (3 months back). Within a month receding gum lines started filling back. Continuous sensitivity in teeth is gone. There is major improvement in overall dental health. Results were so dramatic that I also stopped using tooth paste and switched to tooth powder. What magic this tooth powder did which could not be done by both doctors and greatest of tooth pastes? A scientist can do the research on the tooth powder and try to find out. However, it is unlikely that a great result will come out of it because it is a complex interaction of the ingredients and human body working together leading to the result - which is too complex for the reductionist science to comprehend. That is where root cause of today's science is - including medical science.

    If anybody is interested in trying it: Navajeevan Dantamanjan by Vaidya V.Y. Mane in Bharamakhodi, Athani taluk, Belgaum district, Karnataka. Ph: 09448420314. I am not an agent of this pharmacy or has any relationship (business or otherwise) with the pharmacy. Hope that someone may benefit from this is the only reason why I have published it here.
    asimpleson likes this.
  3. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    @RaviHegde

    Every scientific discipline or any combination runs the danger of being, and cannot but be 'reductionist': it is by reductionism/reductionist modelling and testing that one identifies the particular mechanisms (bio-chemical, bi-mechanical, bio-ecoloical...) at play. Every scientific discipline for the last several decades has long realized the need to integrate these mechanisms/processes with others, possibly of different nature altogether (eg., neurological with physiological with psychoanalytic). Almost all cutting-edge science and medical practice is, and has been for a long while, multi-causal, system-thinking-based, ecological and multi-disciplinary.

    And so the proper and fair charge of reductionism is really just an old Romantic reaction to the arroance of science....many decades old.

    Even 'Holism' must be aware of the specific and particular nature and pathways of the 'parts' and of how they 'integrate' or 'synthesize' into 'wholes', and must test their multi-reductionist (you might say) models statistically and experimentally, controlling as much as possible for other variables/mechanisms that are kept 'constant/equal'.

    What we cannot have are anecdotal, whimsical, and clearly socioculturally, ritually and politically loaded 'holistic' medical approaches claiming medical efficacy (let alone able to explain the why-s and why-nots of illness) in pretty much completely untested and unverified and unregulated manner, as we do in the 'medical baazar' currently.

    The whole point of science as ethos and temper is: doubt, debate, testing/proof, disputes, dialogues, peer review....and then a (provisional) decision, until new evidence or new theoretical arguments and models lead to a re-starting of the above process. A similar logic (should) govern the medico-legal regulatory bodies, which are so utterly weak and corrupt in India as to be absent.

    Of course, within limits, everyone is free to practice any form of medicine on themselves....but on others? For money and power? With so much untested, unproven, unexamined and uncharted? Based purely on hearsay, rumour and 'confidence' (trickery)?
  4. RaviHegde

    RaviHegde Regolare

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    That is where the problem of science is - in every field:
    • Wasn't nuclear power safe until Fukushima happened? (forget about Chernobyl, it happened in the distant past). Now the science is struggling to figure out how to contain it.
    • Aren't modern medicines supposed to be very safe? But only until someone proves it to be not safe any more. For example - my Dad has got Parkinson's disease because of a medicine he was given as very safe medicine (this doctor had told "I take it when I need it, it is very safe"). Not doctor's fault, it is the fault of arrogant reductionist science to say it is safe when it does not know what is going on.
    • GMOs are also very safe and saviors of earth according to GMO industry. However within decades of it being in use already there are lot of pointers towards it (GMO + the series of sprays that come with them) being very unsafe not only for humans, for lot of other life forms on earth as well.
    • Cell phones are very safe right? Who told cell phone radiation causes cancer? Definitely not cell phone industry.
    In all these cases arrogant science does something not knowing the full impacts of it. In many cases science does not publish it even if it knows it. In many cases industry suppresses the information for the monetary benefits of keeping information hidden. Later when the effects are known (either people find out or the effects cannot be hidden any more) science does not know how to contain and reverse the damage. Latest science at that time does more arrogant things saying old science was bad and we are better now - which is again proven to be wrong after some time. We are living in times of deadly combination of money power and arrogance of science. Money power is using arrogant science as a shield to fool people. That is how nuclear industry, medicine industry, cancer industry and GMO industry have been running.

    Only way to safeguard ourselves from the industry+science is going back to nature. One example is sky rocketing rate of diabetes in recent years. Science has a complex and expensive solution to the problem. Lot of business generated for the industry through the solution: Glucose meters, medicines, checkups etc. Science does not want to address the root cause and close the chapter. But there are people who walk the other path. There is one health practitioner in Mysore city who cures diabetes from diet change. As per his research diabetes has sky rocketed because of our genetics combined with wrong dietary changes we did in last few decades. Highly processed rice, wheat and sugar (all are rich people's food he says) are responsible for the diabetes epidemic. Diabetes and many other ailments troubling his patients went away when he switched them to millet based diet. Such people never come back to him for treatment because they are really cured (as long as they are on natural diet). Such people don't keep buying medicines. Such people don't need to visit labs and hospitals for tests and further treatments. Why will the industry and science like to lose all the business? Both industry and science have full incentives to keep patients as patients for ever instead of curing them for ever.
    prabhjot likes this.
  5. jumu

    jumu Superiore

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    969
    Chennai
    @RaviHegde, Are you the doctor whose videos are on Youtube and whattsapp? Just curious. The words you use are similar:) I checked for that tooth powder in chennai, but doesnt show up in google!

    Abdul
  6. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

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    @jumu, looks like its marketed to limited extent, perhaps karnataka and few other places. I too googled for it but its not available online either. @RaviHegde, do post label and contents if possible, will like to compare with existing available prodcuts.
  7. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    @RaviHegde

    You are perfectly correct that medical science is, shall we say, amoral: but that is the only way it can and must be, since 'nature' including everything from the protein to the infinite universe is totally impersonal and amoral.

    However, the GOVERNANCE of medical science, and the governance of medical practice is in the domain not just of science, but also ethics. The very definition of good- and ill-health is a matter of ethical reasoning, as is obviously the question of what trade-offs between different dimensions are acceptable, and who will decide.

    Every medicine is in equal parts a poison, the same is true of medical practices, including the great question of incentives/payoffs/market-forces/trust/confidence etc.

    The question is precisely one of ethics, personal and 'public', and not just of scientificity and medical efficacy.

    Can we, as individuals, family members, friends and citizens, the government, the courts, the police etc let this domain of medical 'good health'/'welfare'/well-being be left to sociocultural, ethnic, political, ritual and aesthetic currents and ideas and ideologies and romances and resentments and fashions....

    ....or are we best-off relying on tested, credentialized, accountable to the law and to the 'facts', open, professionalized bodies of MODERN, GLOBAL scientific and ethical knowledge/reasoning (not one, several)?

    The latter are a utopia, but still: the record in terms of just about any indicator anywhere in the world of modern medical-science-based practices including especially public health provision and sanitation etc is staggeringly good, relative to ALL available evidence from ANY society at ANY time in history (including esp China).

    Which does not mean critique, doubt and skepticism about say commercialism or consumerist ill-healthy practices (for self and others) etc is not required. It is, indeed it is by being open to these that modern medical science/pragmatics has achieved its stupendous results.

    But culturalist/lifestyle fashion-based/mystical/ritual/'morality'-based medical practices and systems just will NOT do as practice, though perhaps they have a role as medical-ethical reasoners.

    Not even individually, let alone collectively or publicly. We must strengthen our professional medical institutions, by backing the multi-disciplinary, modern and liberal-humanist, PROFESSIONALISM of our medical scientists and esp doctors, their teachers and their 'employers'. There's no other rational, pragmatic and/or effective way?[/USER]
  8. RaviHegde

    RaviHegde Regolare

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    Karnataka
    14.62°N 74.85°E
    Grande Punto 1.4
    @prabhjot

    I believe there is no point in only blaming medical science for being amoral. Morality has disappeared from all other areas of life too. Government (politicians and sarkari babus) take the top spot in matter of amorality. There is old saying "Yatha raja tatha praja". Amorality from the top has trickled down to every corner of our society today. India was a land of spirituality and morality once upon a time. We are the opposite of it today. People do all messy things and then conduct a yagya to wash their sins! In fact system forces you to do amoral things even if you want to be moral today.

    Bhutan, a poor and small country ranks top in the happiness index. Richest countries show up at the bottom of happiness index. That shows so called development and growing GDP will cause more misery and problems for people. Majority of people don't seem to understand it. Very few understand it. See about Lasqueti: http://ecowatch.com/2015/03/06/off-grid-living-manhattan-sized-island/. I am seriously jealous of those people after reading it and seeing the video. Life is not easy for them. But they are more healthy, more happy and live in a very peaceful location with clean air and water. What else is needed in life? That is the secret solution for majority of the problems we had been discussing on this thread.

    Look at 2 situations:

    Situation A: I look around and see my friend/relative bought a house/site/flat at 20 lakhs which has become 40,80 or 120 lakhs today. That greed grips me and I lust for a property. I don't have enough earning. I start amoral practices at my level to make it work for me. This disease spreads to others. Small people do smaller amoral acts and bigger ones do bigger. I do amoral acts to earn thousands or lakhs. The builder who gets this amoral from me does corruption of millions and billions. It gets bigger as the people are higher up in the ladder.

    Situation B: I look around and see all this amoral things and get disgusted. I decide not to join the treadmill. Decide to live a happy and fulfilling life instead of life full of money. I don't need to earn through immoral means to fund my lust. No corrupt and moral person gets anything out of me. If this spreads to others (which will not happen in our society today) the whole industry of amoral and corrupt practices collapses. People can live much better quality of life. Just because I don't need to please anybody and I don't need to compete with anybody I will live a happier life even if no one else joins me in this.

    It is for us to decide which situation we want to be in.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 29, 2015 ---
    No, unfortunately I am not a doctor. I somehow had strong affinity to machines from my childhood. So I ended up becoming an engineer! It is a different matter that I did not practice my basic engineering discipline because of my liking for computers.

    This manufacturer does not run a huge commercial scale setup. Therefore that tooth powder may not be available anywhere outside the manufacturer's district. If you call the number and send money order they ship it. You may want to try Vicco Vajradanti and see whether it works for you. Stick to it if it works well.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 29, 2015 ---
    Label is printed on ordinary paper and pasted on the container. Unfortunately it has become unreadable because of touching it with wet hands when brushing. I am going to order a new bottle in next few days. Will post the ingredients after I get the new bottle.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2015
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  9. Tornado

    Tornado Superiore

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    Driver's seat.
    Western Maharashtra
    Avventura 1.3 90 HP
    One thing I wanted to clearly mention here is that 'medical science is an incomplete science &full of uncertainty (unexpected, undesirable, unpleasant things keep on happening).
    Hence whenever a doc ( experienced or inexperienced) advises something & if you get a unexpected or undesired result, you are likely to feel that he did it for money. For eg. The dental patient mentioned by Ravi hegade earlier is likely to feel that he was advised surgery for money purpose as he has got relief with a powder.
    Now, no one knows side effects of this powder and if the patient suffers from them, he will start calling the powder manufacturing as a money spinning bussines.
    prabhjot likes this.
  10. RaviHegde

    RaviHegde Regolare

    Messages:
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    Karnataka
    14.62°N 74.85°E
    Grande Punto 1.4
    Definitely medical science is seriously incomplete science. I am saying that out of the experience of working in life science companies in the business of drug discovery. You will think twice before using any medicine if you know how drug discovery and approval mechanism works.

    You mentioned about the dental patient in one of my previous posts - I am not at all saying doctors suggested surgery for money. My objection is the seriously intrusive nature of the suggested treatments. Both of those surgeries have possible serious side effects. Dental science has no way of undoing the surgery when the side effects happen. If they cannot undo the side effect why should they do it in the first place? That is the problem we have with medical science. They do things without knowing all the things that can go wrong. Later they struggle to fix it causing more problems at the end. Do we call that science?

    One example of incomplete dental science is root canal treatment. Root canal treatment leaves a dead part in the body - which no other branch of medical science does. That can lead to several serious problems after several years. See http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/02/18/dangers-of-root-canaled-teeth.aspx. You can get lot more information on google about why root canal treatment is not as safe as the doctor tells you. Why do we even call it science then? Isn't non-science tooth powder far better option? Stop using it if you see side effects. In any case it should be far better than scientifically prepared medicines having several warnings in the fine print.

    Doctors prescribe medicines without telling you the dangers of using it. If you don't read the literature you will keep using it thinking scientific medicines are good for me! I had several incidents of doctors not telling me about possible serious side effects which I found in the literature. Either the doctor does not know about the problems (which is bad) or he is not telling me about the problems (which is bad too). Therefore I don't blindly trust any doctor and medicine now. I very rarely go to a doctor. I do my research before deciding whether to use any medicine or not if I visit a doctor.

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