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Medical Science - Discussion

Discussion in 'Hangout' started by RaviHegde, Mar 15, 2015.

  1. RaviHegde

    RaviHegde Regolare

    Messages:
    299
    Karnataka
    14.62°N 74.85°E
    Grande Punto 1.4
    Couple of years back, when I was in Bangalore, I went to the fruit market near Banashankari bus stand in Bangalore to buy mangoes. I asked the seller do you use chemicals to ripen them. He told if you are worried about all that stop eating mangoes. He told farmers use hormones to get 2 mango crops in a year. I left the place immediately without buying the fruits. Recently there was a news about watermelons - farmers/sellers inject a carcinogenic chemical dye into the watermelons to make them look red inside. Farmers dip the whole bunch of grapes (when they are on the vines) in pesticides because spraying is not keeping the pests away. What is there to eat? Don't tell me organic - a big farmer with hundreds of acres holding told he sells little worm infested and diseased produce (after doing all the pesticide sprays) as organic :eek: We are in a stage where air, water and food has become toxic. How long can we go like this?
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  2. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    3,000
    Heptanesia
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    I stumbled upon some documentaries on US farming practices, even for poultry some farmers have a specific farm only for their own consumption and few nearby who insist on paying for breeding and feeding them in more natural ways. I guess the term is 'free range'. One good answer to pesticides is in this talk of Shimon Steinberg's -

  3. RaviHegde

    RaviHegde Regolare

    Messages:
    299
    Karnataka
    14.62°N 74.85°E
    Grande Punto 1.4
    Yes, free ranging birds are left in the farm like chickens do normally - to run around, chase each other, soak in the sun, breathe natural air, eat their natural food of insects and grains etc. unlike the "farm chickens" which are kept in cramped cages close to each other, fed engineered food with loads of antibiotics, and, live under artificial light. Because of these conditions, apparently, farm chickens have very high level of stress hormones and antibiotics in their system which goes to the body of the people who eat them. Therefore farm chickens and their eggs are not at all good for health. Therefore farmers "grow" separate stuff for their own consumption!

    Biological pest control is the best. When we stop interfering with the natural life they control each other. This is why some farmers create a good environment for insects and birds to live in their farm. I am seeing live example in my balcony now: one bird couple has built nest in my balcony and hatched 3 little ones few days back. I see the parent birds continuously bringing worms/insects to feed their children. Every few minutes one insect goes into the mouth of the little ones. Like this one bird family eats several hundred worms and insects in a day. If a farmer has such birds near his field he will get this service for free. Lot of worms vanish from his crop without pesticides. But if he starts spraying birds will stop coming and he has to spray more in the next season because there is nothing except the pesticide to control the pests. Unfortunately by the next season pests develop resistance to the pesticide, they won't die easily. It becomes a vicious cycle reinforcing itself as time passes.
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2015
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  4. RaviHegde

    RaviHegde Regolare

    Messages:
    299
    Karnataka
    14.62°N 74.85°E
    Grande Punto 1.4
  5. Tornado

    Tornado Superiore

    Messages:
    677
    Driver's seat.
    Western Maharashtra
    Avventura 1.3 90 HP
    It is to avoid misuse. Legally, it should be used by Allopaths only, but in our country there is fashion of using word 'Doctor' as prefix to their names by Ayurveda, homeopaths, sidha, unani practioners. No wonder I see hundreds of Tamiflu prescriptions written by them though it is illegal.

    See, bro, vaccination has got more benefits than the risks, if this is proven, then only FDA allows it to use it on recipients. Moreover, law conscious doctors (read Allopaths) take a written consent from recipients that some time vaccine can cause harm more than the benefit but usually chances of benefit are more and that of harm are less. If you agree you should take it else free to deny. Docs get a hundred or thousand rupees for the vaccine but if in case vaccine not taken and the person suffers same disease doc can earn lakhs per case for example corrective surgeries on the limbs of polio patient or expenses on the swine flu patient who is on ventilator.

    And for god sake, believe the medical science there is nothing known as 'natural immunity' against these two and many other crippling and fatal disorders. In case of this love towards 'natural immunity ' if the disease is communicable then if you suffer from it you are likely to endager the whole community around so consult a specialist doctor in that field and then take decision.
    So choice is your.

    To talk about greed in general, you need not pass from medical school. Illiterates can talk better than the doc on this.
    If he says that 'doctors are cause of problem' and live a doctor free life though you are ill. It means he was not attentive enough in the medical school. And if as per him docs are not required then he should have returned his degree certificates to the respective medical schools without delay. If he has not returned it yet, doesn't it mean that he is greedy and keeping the certificates to earn money??

    Anyways, Let's ask a question to Dr Hegde, if a person consumes a chemically ripened food and suffers poisonous effects, Should he visit doc or leave the things to nature?
    Our country is suffering from population explosion and this Dr Hegde wants to control it by hook or crook, it seems.

    AFA, CEO, you mentioned is concerned, he needs to understand a simple truth which a 12 standard student can tell and that is, 'Medical science is not a mathematical science but a biological science.'

    In maths, 1+1 is always 2 but in biology you can see 1+1=1,(husband +wife =1 baby )
    1+1=0(husband +wife, wife aborts midway =0 baby
    1 +1=11( read the history of reproduction in India)
    1 ovum +100 millions sperms =1 or 2 or 3 or 4.....single baby, Twins, Triplets, Quadruplets....

    Bro, boss (CEO) is always right but only when he is around, in absentia, you can analyse him critically.
    Doctor =God???
    No, bro no , the scriptures you are talking about is written well before entry of allopaty & doctors in this county.
    And the scripture was written for 'Vaidyas' which means Ayurveda practioners.
    Now calling all the health care practioners as doctors by a means of coupling translation of the languages is like calling swift & Punto engines one and same! !!
    Majority of people (not all) call the docs as God and think that they should accept whatever money is decided and paid by the patient just like god accepts donation without opening mouth.

    Now AFA 'enough money' is concerned , we all know thousands of docs who save thousands of PRECIOUS (than Lakhs & corores of Rupees) lives over years. Don't they have a right to travel in safest car? If yes, then how many of them we see travelling in safest cars which costs corores?
    I am sure most of them travel in swifts which has got Zero Ncap ratings!!
    Well, many people feel that docs are overcharging, but when they go to a builder or developer to purchase a home of own, they shell out millions & corores for a home without any hiccups which is built @1k INR +/- per square foot!!
    And all agree health, life and limb is more important than purchasing own home. One can stay in rented home!
    Builder's personal margin in such a transaction of a single home is in terms of millions & corores. Now, show me few docs who have charged in millions as their own professional charges for saving a life precious than the flat or bungalow.
    And then, let's discuss amount of the efforts, sacrifice of family life and time put in by the builder & the doctors to reach that stage of earning.

    Bro, you said, medical fraternity should come together against evil practices in their fields, but tell me if they come together and spend time on a stage or Internet, who will do the job of saving all precious lives of this explosively populated nation?

    In the end, I would say number of bad or evil docs is lot lesser than good & angel docs .

    One simple solution is that if you want allopathic treatment, go to Allopaths, if you want Ayurveda, go to Ayurveda practioners,.Crosspathy practice is banned by SC. Dare to ask the practioner that if the medicine written by him belongs to his pathy and evil practice would reduce by leaps and bounds.

    And whenever you go to some Allopath, and if you feel charges he is telling are exorbitant, then take a 'second 'opinion' from other allopath. And if you find anything suspicious, do bother to discuss with both of them.
    In case of emergency, don't follow the 'second opinion' advice ' because for taking it you need to be alive first.
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2015
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  6. ramjn

    ramjn Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    5,243
    Chennai
    Linea 1.3
    I agree to the point that Non-Allopathics should not prescribe Allopathic medicines.

    But, I strongly believe any 'Qualified Medical Practitioner' can be deemed as Doctor. This is not something which is patented for the Allopathic Practitioner.

    No offense to Allopathic Doctors. I have respect for all medical practitioners. :)
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2015
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  7. Tornado

    Tornado Superiore

    Messages:
    677
    Driver's seat.
    Western Maharashtra
    Avventura 1.3 90 HP
    If it not patented, then the term 'Doctor' should be immediately banned or removed from medical profession as it is creating confusion in the minds of masses despite spending billions on education & adult literacy in India.
    And practioners should be called according to the pathy +speciality they are qualified in .
    This would really help the cause.
    Moreover, the law of this land & the medical jurisprudence itself doesn't call a doctor doctor but call Registered Medical Practitioner.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 27, 2015, Original Post Date: Apr 27, 2015 ---
    Just putting a fact on the board.
    I see the University certificates issued to various medical practitioners. Practioners who pass MD in allopathy get a degree certificate mentioning 'Doctor of Medicine' on it. While Ayurveda practioners get 'Ayurvedacharya, Ayurved Vishrad etc on their certificate.

    So I strongly feel that, a small topic should be included in the syllabus of the high school mentioning difference between all the pathys so that it can be helpful while choosing a career in medicine or choosing a doctor for their aliment.
  8. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    There is a kind of 'medical relativism' that is pervasive in India, in which utterly pre-modern-science based therapeutic, and bio-moral-cultural rather than bio-chemical-medical, supposed rational 'systems' like AYUSH are gaining, with state sponsorship, credence when IMO they have been categorically shown to be dis-proven and mis-proven as plausible medical systems, by modern bio-medical sciences and clinical trials, statistical studies etc.

    This is for reasons of cultural identity/prestige quests and political projects, and also to a large extent because we want to believe that there is psycho-cultural/ethnic relief from the horrible uncertainties....of physical suffering and death.

    Other than placebo effects and arguably the modes of palliative and end-of-life care...these systems are organised, culturally certified and even sanctified forms of quackery, that flourish only because of our persistent discomfiture with the, difficult because cold, impersonal and hyper-rational, MODERN.

    This phenomenon is on a par with the persistence and efflorescence of mumbo-jumbo magical 'sciences' like astrology, palmistry and numerology. 'Nonsense on stilts', as Bentham called religion.

    All signs that 'we are not modern yet', and still believe in what is tantamount to magic i.e., un-, pre-and anti-scientific.

    Not that modern bio-medical science is without problems, blindspots and deficits, but culturally, ritually, morally and religiously inflected and determined 'medical systems' like AYUSH are plain dangerous especially when practised in utterly pseudo-modern form, and on a mass, state-sponsored-for-political-cultural- reasons scale.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 28, 2015 ---
    PS: Western societies, since the Romantic movement in the nineteenth century, have been guilty at times of not being 'truly modern' either, indeed perhaps are currently losing their hard-won modernist 'scientific temper' culture too, becoming 'post-modern', in which everyone becomes a version of a 'hippy'!
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2015
  9. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
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    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    @prabhjot, the patients and public at large will ofcourse decide what is right, wrong, pseudo or proto-sciences evolving in our country. There are believe it or not, too many experiences and cases that people cite where these alternative systems have helped in getting the results and mainstream medications have led to further serious conditions. Call it lacunae or pitfalls of a system of medicine. I have known (seen) (now deceased already) MBBS doctor, a world war veteran (army doctor) who practiced Ayurveda his whole life. He was looking for a disciple, a qualified MBBS who could follow the strict regimen (pathya-pani) needed to be followed to be an expert Ayurveda practitioner like himself. Unfortunately for him or for his thousands of patients he could not find a proper disciple to carry forward his experiences/expertise in treating patients so very well.

    Integrated courses planned and offered by the present government could not be a bad move, and will be a boon and an eye-opener for many doctors who also see the great benefits traditional medicines have to offer. In fact some of the most reputed doctors and specialists in Mumbai I know for a fact have taken certificate degrees and courses that would allow them to offer combo treatment options to patients would not respond to common treatment options. While there are others who will not open up to the idea at all because they are too arrogant to opinions and examples cited by others.
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  10. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    @asimpleson

    Yes but how to, as statisticians, clinical trial experts, and econometricians, and medical scientists (as opposed to pragmatically, including esp money-, oriented doctors) etc CONTROL for sociocultural, identity, psychoanalytical, political, religious and ritual BIASES in the way these medical streams operate in a society like India which, as we know, remains extremely prone to 'faith', credulity (and also cynicism) rather than constructive empiricism, skepticism, logical/theoretical AND practical testing, i.e., 'science' in the sense of 'ethos' or 'temper' (rather than as an absolutism), whether regulatory, legal, ecological or bio-chemical/pharmaceutical.

    There are difficult debates to be had BUT what will not do is the current 'free for all' where every real or imagined or re-invented or hybridized or concocted or magical etc medical approach/stream/system, each, like any business, full of tall claims/promises and lavish self-promotion.......is fleecing the anxious trust/confidence of so many people and their relatives.

    It is saddening that such rationalists among doctors, epidemologists, public health bureaucrats, ecologists, etc in India are failing to assert the primacy of reason, especially causal, and testing/proof, and science-as-a-whole.....leaving what has become a medical baazar, for the desperate and the suffering and fearful, open to any number of doubtful if not dubious medical approaches.

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