1. Introducing the smashing new Team FIAT T-Shirt !! To order yours click here : Team FIAT T-Shirt

Manual Boost Controller

Discussion in 'Modifications & Tuning' started by whitepunto76, Jul 28, 2015.

  1. whitepunto76

    whitepunto76 Regolare

    Messages:
    267
    Bangalore
    Friends,

    Yesterday have installed Grimmspeed MBC on Punto 75 HP at Bay 6. MBC is set to 21 psi.
    Initially, we wanted to find the stock Boost Pressure. Found it to be 18psi. Increased the psi with multiple runs with each turn click which increases 1/4 psi per click. The turbo was responding nicely with no smoke or harshness. Max increase now set to 21psi.
    The stock Wastegate is actually set to 1.5bar = 21.76psi. Now the turbo boost is linear across the power band and its real tight which holds the spool pretty well.

    Below are the pics which gives more info.

    GrimmSpeed_MBC.jpg

    MBC_installed_1.jpg

    3500RPM.png

    MBC_BoostGraph.JPG
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 20, 2015 ---
    Below are some of the points answered by tuner.

    1) Impact on Turbo by using MBC due to change of atmospheric pressure at various places-
    There will definitely be impact on the Turbo as we increase the boost pressure. The MBCs are installed in 3 Swifts & 2 Ritz which uses the same MJD engine. Those are running at 22-24psi with the remap and MBC. Each of these are run close to 25-40000 kms with remap+MBC. No turbo failure yet. And engines have responded well in varying altitudes. These cars are driven to places like Ooty/Kodai/Munnar/Himachal/Leh/Spiti/Manali and beaches. As per the drivers, they felt the cars responded better in Mumbai/low pressure areas and was more powerful compared to weathers in Bangalore.
    But its always better to keep the boost to 1.5 bar and not more just to play safe.

    2) Impact on Timing Chain/Pistons/Injectors-
    MBCs are used only to control the turbo push within the torque power band.
    Its on the drive shaft and will have less impact to these if kept within the limits of 1.5bar.
    Moreover, the impact on Turbo is more than the actual components.

    3) Full Boost Part Throttle-
    This should not be experienced if using MBCs. This is bad for turbo and early failure is guaranteed.

    4) Overboost-
    If the boost pressure is not controlled within the turbo limit, car will throw the Overboost CEL error.
    And turbo probably will melt. EGT should not hit beyond 1650. This throws car to limp mode where the car can be driven within 2000rpm.

    5) WGDT and Boost Tables-
    No way to change these tables in ECU for 75BHP. Thats the reason MBCs are used to control them appropriately when all the limiters are moved up the graph.
    There is definitely increase in Power even if the increase is around 3psi from stock. As we drive, we feel the difference during WOT surges within the power band.

    Surprising of all is Swift/Ritz DDiS are responding very well compared to Fiat MJD with the MBC.
    Have heard few not so good reviews of Prosport/Perrin MBCs. Grimmspeed or Hallman Pro are good for use.
    Fiat MJD uses KKK Turbo.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2015
    varunrtr, asimpleson and kunwar.g like this.
  2. kunwar.g

    kunwar.g Superiore

    Messages:
    522
    Gurgaon
    Grande Punto 1.3
    Thanks for sharing. Have some specific questions.

    1. What is the difference felt? Do you have more power at lower rpm? Any improvement in acceleration?

    2. Was the map retuned to adjust for 21psi?

    3. Please share pics of where the rubber pipes are going to from the MBC.
  3. kunwar.g

    kunwar.g Superiore

    Messages:
    522
    Gurgaon
    Grande Punto 1.3
    Also,

    4. Should the pressure be Manually aftered to adjust for Atmospheric Pressure at different altitude? If yes, approx how much
  4. whitepunto76

    whitepunto76 Regolare

    Messages:
    267
    Bangalore
    There is definite improvement in lower rpms. But, the immediate surge is felt from 1800 rpm till 3500 rpm. And this time the turbo spool really holds till you lift your foot off the pedal. Else, you can really play around with this rpm band pretty well across various speeds. Now, its a linear accelaration with the surge holding up along the torque curve.
    Map was not retuned at all as the ECU is self-learning. It adjusts the values based on the input. As ECU maintains these values within the limits.
    MBC has two slots. Boost In and Wastegate Out. The Boost source is put at the bottom slot and side slot is used of Wastegate out.
    If you search for grimmspeed youtube video, it is explained very clearly.
    No adjustment of boost pressure needed at high altitudes. ECU manages that only if we run within the max of 1.5 bar.
    kunwar.g likes this.
  5. harryaviator

    harryaviator Regolare

    Messages:
    341
    kochi
    kochi
    Linea 1.3
    congrats on successful installation of the MBC. coming your way next weekend. Would be great if you can come over on Monday or Tuesday 28th/ 29th of this month to bay 6.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 20, 2015 ---
    also, try to get a fixed securing point for the MBC at a place where you can alter it as required, but far away from the hands of any local mechanic/ guys at FASS.
  6. kunwar.g

    kunwar.g Superiore

    Messages:
    522
    Gurgaon
    Grande Punto 1.3
    Thanks. But if you can still share pics it would be helpful as the videos are not mjd specific. Unless you have been asked by installer not to share it.
  7. whitepunto76

    whitepunto76 Regolare

    Messages:
    267
    Bangalore
    Will try to share the pics. The turbo fitted in MJD is at the bottom. Hence, need to find correct angle to take pics.
    It was difficult to find the source point and need to jack up the car.
  8. KKAUL

    KKAUL Amatore

    Messages:
    205
    delhi
    Grande Punto 1.3
    Good to see your installation.
    Please my comments with no offences

    In this case your MBC is holding i suppose WG pressure till 3500 rpm and who says it will have less effect on timing chain. A timing chain is prone to more failure in case of Fiat if power is extracted more in lower gear.That is one of the reason why fiat recommend early change when driving in traffic irrespective of the type of turbo.

    I hope 1650 is in degree faranite and it is way too high near about 900 celcius ebven if you are touching near 600 + is a deep concern.By the time engine goes in limp mode many things would have fried.By the way did the code 6 people checked your intake temp and eghast temp of Cat con .Or they just missed it.I am sure they won't bother to check that .FYI inf aluminium has a melt temp around 700 and catcon will increase the temp by around 100 degree basic principle
    They will never understand why they can't alter the table. They will say it is protected but actually the story might be different.
    This is because of the gear ratios nothing big to understand.
    KKK was former name then BW and then after partnership TEL chennai. It is TEL chennai turbo
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 21, 2015 ---
    It is no artificial intelligence that of ECM. The programme is written using certain set of mathematical equations with variables. The moment variable changes its values ECM respond accordingly.
    That is the irony in India we will all love to modify and comment on the code but no one will dare to write those.Anyways
    best of luck
  9. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    3,000
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    @KKAUL you are raising interesting questions too, that ordinarily lots of tuners worth their salt would know about, but you must also be knowing that the resources are limited in many cases. Having said that I appreciate your concern for the safety and your undertone about modders not paying heed to important aspects concerning the longevity of systems not limiting just to engine health.

    With regards your comment on ECU, the ecu as @whitepunto76 mentioned has safeguards and self-learning, yes not artificial intelligence, but intelligence nontheless. If maps are not altered and yes their incapability to alter other parameters as is evident I am willing to believe that atleast the ECU could offer reasonable safeguards to some extent to user errors like for example setting wrong boost parameters. This is an inquiry or study for many and I would urge you to add your suggestions about how to tackle these issues and find a workaround if at all someone wants to go this route. The modding scene is just warming up to more serious tuners and companies giving options to car owners.
  10. KKAUL

    KKAUL Amatore

    Messages:
    205
    delhi
    Grande Punto 1.3
    @asimpleson

    I think you have not understood my point regarding the ECU programming and AI
    I will explain and hope I am correct. The moment the remapper is able to write the equation regarding the thermal combustion and alter it.I guarantee I will personally drop to congratulate him.(Though my congratulation would not be a big deal for him)

    We all know the equation of circle X2 + Y2 = r2 where x and Y are floating points and r defines the radius. Now the R max is set by Fiat we call it limiter and we can only fiddle with x and Y to achieve r max but beyond this we cannot go.This is safe guard by ECU.The only question will be how much pain FIAT has taken to get R max value in Indian condition because of the poor quality in indian market.

    Now come the AI part supposedly I am only fiddling with X variable but at the same time another parametric equation involved rcos theta and r sin theta are playing role in back ground which will eventually result in fixing the Y value that you are refering to AI of ecm.
    This is just a example same happens in ECM with variables mostly feedback from sensors. The equation is the real game rather than fiddling with parameters.
    I am not demeaning any tuners effort but what they are charging is exhorbitant for the work they are doing.
    I know its everybodys own decision

Share This Page