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Manual Boost Controller

Discussion in 'Modifications & Tuning' started by whitepunto76, Jul 28, 2015.

  1. Deepak

    Deepak Regolare

    Messages:
    455
    KA-30
    Bengaluru
    Punto Evo 1.3 90 HP
    @whitepunto76 : don't they take care of enhancing boost parametres in remap ? how is it different from the device you are importing?
  2. kunwar.g

    kunwar.g Superiore

    Messages:
    522
    Gurgaon
    Grande Punto 1.3
    So, what's the real benefit of MBC without actually getting improvement in downpipe and FFE. Also, will this be reachable antytime one wants to alter it, or its going to be a task to alter anything in the MCB.

    Apologies if my questions are stupid.
    Pradeepms likes this.
  3. whitepunto76

    whitepunto76 Regolare

    Messages:
    267
    Bangalore
    Guys, Even I am naive at this. But, I am meeting the tuner next week. Will confirm once I have detailed discussion of pros n cons on the MBC part. Will also discuss on downpipe. In Code 6, they have suggested decat - downpipe without modification of the exhaust.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 13, 2015 ---
    Guys, Even I am naive at this. But, I am meeting the tuner next week. Will confirm once I have detailed discussion of pros n cons on the MBC part. Will also discuss on downpipe. In Code 6, they have suggested decat - downpipe without modification of the exhaust.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 13, 2015, Original Post Date: Aug 13, 2015 ---
    As @kunwar mentioned, normally MBC is installed after getting downpipe+decat+exhaust.

    The DP/DC/EX setup makes boost to vary a lot corresponding to the atmospheric pressure & turbo spool build up.

    Hence there will be boost spikes at specific RPMs which may not be desirable.


    Purpose of Boost Controller:

    The boost controller simply controls boost, that's all.

    ways to get the boost curve as straight as possible

    Extract more power by increasing the boost to hold the turbo spool all the way till 4500rpm

    Boost controllers fix spike.
    Wastegate porting fixes creep.


    Here are the stock fuel cut numbers:

    rpm max boost
    1000 11.8
    1500 11.8
    2000 11.8
    2500 11.8
    3000 12.2
    3500 12.4
    4000 12.8
    4500 13.3
    5000 12.2
    5500 11.3
    6000 11.1
    6500 10.7
    7000 10.7

    . You'll start to run into boost tailing off at higher RPM

    The turbo spools up fine, and holds 10 lbs until 5000, then it will fall back to about 8psi.

    Outcome of MBC:

    driving impressions are: 1) less smoke under acceleration, 2) minimized turbo lag, 3) better throttle response, 4) linear acceleration
    remap has lifted the boost threshold to 29PSI

    map has been further improved to take advantage of more boost.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 13, 2015 ---
    Further to this, the cost vs power bump is compariaively more in MBC than in decat+downpipe.
    Few people are running on Stage 1 remap + MBC.
    Feedback I have got from folks is, downpipe+decat - increase of 5-7bhp.
    However, with MBC + retuned map - increase is around 10-12bhp or even more based on tweaking the WGDC/Booster maps.
  4. kunwar.g

    kunwar.g Superiore

    Messages:
    522
    Gurgaon
    Grande Punto 1.3
    With my limited knowledge would suggest against decat. There are just too many harmful gases that the Cat takes care off. Though the EGR is also for that purpose, but if you drive at right rpm the absence of EGR is negated. So, a SS downpipe ( larger diameter with less bends ) and a FFE makes more sense.

    Also as for our 75hp the catcon is part of the straight pipe and to remove it the pipe has to be cut and then add a
    flange to the straight pipe, the new straight decat pipe and also the existing cat, just in case you plan to put it back again. Now this will straight away throw the warranty out the window.

    The downpipe connects to the straight pipe, so a downpipe can be made to fit and later be removed in case of any warranty issues and replaced with OEM. Same for the Muffler.

    Technically the Catcon will just probably add 1-2 BHP as it’s not really restrictive as much, but maybe with a better downpipe it proves to be more restrictive.

    Again experts or code 6 will need to help understand what will be the gain from just SS downpipe and SS muffler. And maybe in numbers its just will be single digits increase in HP, but need to understand how much will be the benefit in low and mid end performance. Personally not looking for much improvement in over 4500 rpm
    Other think I am unsure of is where is the O2 sensor placed. If on the downpipe will a SS downpipe completely eliminate the sensor or it can still be placed into the SS donwpipe

    Is Wastegate porting done by remapping or MBC can help on this too.

    See that the Max boos is of 13.3 and here your map has lifted the boost to 29PSI. More than double. Is it safe ? With so much boost and still the restrictive exit of exhaust hope the exhaust manifold wouldn’t conk off

    Sweet, so the MBC will cost around 4-5K and installation will again need to be done by experts. Will installation of MBC effect warranty in anyway. I mean does it require major irreversible modification ?
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 13, 2015 ---
    This is how a flange / connector looks like

    20150424_140601.jpg
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 13, 2015 ---
    This is the 1.3MJD exhaust system

    exhaust_pipe_1_3_mjd_grande_punto_1.jpg
    Naughty likes this.
  5. harryaviator

    harryaviator Regolare

    Messages:
    341
    kochi
    kochi
    Linea 1.3
    MBC costs anything from 15$ to 90 dollars.. its a very cheap option.
  6. kunwar.g

    kunwar.g Superiore

    Messages:
    522
    Gurgaon
    Grande Punto 1.3
    What about installation ? Any idea on how to do it as DIY
  7. harryaviator

    harryaviator Regolare

    Messages:
    341
    kochi
    kochi
    Linea 1.3
    lot of videos available on installation on you tube. looks tobe a fairly simple DIY if you know what and how to do
    kunwar.g likes this.
  8. whitepunto76

    whitepunto76 Regolare

    Messages:
    267
    Bangalore
    @kunwar.g / @harryaviator
    As you guys have mentioned rightly, best option is for SS downpipe and SS muffler.
    MBC will take care of actuating the wastegate porting. And retune is needed to adjust the boosts in WGDC maps.
    Sorry to mis-interpret the readings. The Boost curve numbers posted was a typical boost vs rpm numbers.
    Post remap, I have run the Torque App and its shows the boost around 17psi. Normally with MBC we will increase the boost to 22-25psi. Based on how much throttle response we need, respective adjustment needs to be done in MBC while fitting.
    SS Muffler - if you are really want the sound, probably go for it. Not much improvement. Normally this is good for petrol cars.

    Simple home-made MBC can be DIY using good spring & bearing ball. However, there are aftermarket MBCs available as cheap as 15$ to 90$. Cheap ones come like ProSport or TurboSmart then to Hallman Pro and finally GrimmSpeed MBC.
    Few of the cheap ones does not hold the boost well enough and you get what you pay for.

    HallMan Pro and GrimmSpeed MBC are quite famous for their quality of springs/diaphragm/ball used with them.
    Also, has good adjustable boosts just by turning the cap. Each turn increases 1/4 psi and can be tuned to individual liking.

    Code 6/Bay 6 or any other experts will help in fitting the MBCs correctly and retune the map based on our needs.
    Best combo would be the SS Downpipe + MBC + retune map.
    With this setup itself, the power bumps to around 105 or may be 110bhp. Final stage 2 of MJD 75BHP.
    Post this experiments, the mods will get costlier with cold air intakes/intercooler pipes etc which is not worth it.
    Naughty likes this.
  9. KKAUL

    KKAUL Amatore

    Messages:
    204
    delhi
    Grande Punto 1.3
    @whitepunto76

    If you are meeting a good tuner next week then please ask few of my queries also maybe he can answer them

    Supposedly you are installing MBC on waste gate without the electronics part then please confirm what will happen to turbo in following conditions.
    1) When I increase the throttle considerably and suddenly suppose in a race and suddenly release it to zero since you are playing with waste gate will the turbo go go into Surge zone

    2) I am driving the car with this setup in a Hilly terrain where Pressure ratio is going to increase because of low atmospheric pressure will it need ECU tweaking again.

    3) Using MBC how is he going to ensure that Turbo does not crosses its Peak rpm range.

    4) If suppose negative pressure on th compressor side increase by any means how is he going to ensure that turbo does not fail.

    5) India has both the extremes of climate with every 10 degree of change in temp there will be considerable change in compression force of spring how are they going to account for.

    6) There is a thumb rule for every 10 bhp there is certain minimum amount of air flow reqired whiich should be less than surface area airflow which air filter can handle that is one of the reason we have pleating on filters. How are they going to ensure that the both the condition are met that is air is clean with required mass flow.

    7) Does the retrofitting team thinks the head bolts,Piston rod and the rings can hold that much of power for long time.

    @whitepunto76

    If at all you want to increase the throttle performance of your car without increasing the power considerably then why are you not considering to change the turbo kit to better A/R ratio with low diameter and better control
    Gaurang Trivedi, Naughty and kunwar.g like this.
  10. whitepunto76

    whitepunto76 Regolare

    Messages:
    267
    Bangalore
    @KKAUL:
    Thanks a lot for these queries. Very valid questions to any tuner/getting tuned before even going into mechanical modifications.
    Will get them answered when I meet him.
    I am not in a hurry to install these MBC as well. Want to control as much by the ECU only.
    That way I want to be limited within the thresholds and enjoy the car for little longer time.
    With mods, definitely comes some effects to engine components which needs timely servicing.

    Will respond later.

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