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ICE Considerations

Discussion in 'In Car Entertainment' started by johnny, Jan 17, 2011.

  1. jayadev

    jayadev Esperto

    Messages:
    1,057
    Kannur, India
    Kannur
    Grande Punto 1.3 90 HP
    clipping means :- you are feeding more than what it can take. an impedance mismatch or over voltage pre out can cause clipping . which should not happen in a good ice.
  2. Phew

    Phew Esperto

    Messages:
    1,109
    New Delhi/Mohali
    FASS
    Grande Punto 1.3
    U mean the HU is giving it more power than it can take or is rated at:lol

    close but not close enough try googling a little more from a better source, might just get the exact meaning ::T
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2011
  3. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    2,123
    Pune
    no its the signal that a speaker can handle. say you set the gains too high then the speaker cannot handle it and the amp start clipping. you have a clipping indicator on the amp which blinks if the amp is clipping
  4. jayadev

    jayadev Esperto

    Messages:
    1,057
    Kannur, India
    Kannur
    Grande Punto 1.3 90 HP
    exactly !!
    if amplifier have a gain of 30 and if it can drive speakers upto 60 volts (for 100watts) then the amp should be given no more than 2 volts p-p at its input (30x2v=60v) anything above 2 volts will leads to clipping of amp or distortion.

    when it comes to speakers it is bit different story. speaker being electro dynamic device they clip not only for voltage and current but for frequencies. you feed a 30hertz signal to midbass driver it will act lunatic. coil damage or cone diaphragm damage will be result.
  5. johnny

    johnny Regolare

    Messages:
    437
    Greater Noida
    Greater Noida
    Grande Punto 1.3
    I will just quote from Wiki:-

    "When an amplifier is pushed to create a signal with more power than its power supply can produce, it will amplify the signal only up to its maximum capacity, at which point the signal can be amplified no further. As the signal simply "cuts" or "clips" at the maximum capacity of the amplifier, the signal is said to be "clipping". The extra signal which is beyond the capability of the amplifier is simply cut off, resulting in a sine wave becoming a distorted square-wave-type waveform."


    In most amplifiers/HU this will happen above the "rated power setting", which is normally about 75 to 80% of max setting. So the trick is to stay below this setting. If the output from the HU at this setting is not loud enough for you, then fit an amp so that your desired volume is obtained below the "rated power setting" of the amp.

    When an amp/HU clips you can make out from the type of sound that it produces. Playing an amp/HU continuously under clipping conditions will damage the amp/HU and the speakers.

    Another link that explains this, specifically with respect to the impact on the speakers is:

    http://www.bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm

    Regards
    Johnny
  6. Phew

    Phew Esperto

    Messages:
    1,109
    New Delhi/Mohali
    FASS
    Grande Punto 1.3
    we are talking of powering the comps from the HU, the amp is no yet in the situation
    even the speaker clips if it cant handle it and not just the amp


    @jayadev
    it will act lunatic as thats the frequency which is to be handled by the Subwoofer and not the midbass in the first place(FYI), and besides why would one do such a thing if he has knowledge about all this, and if he/she is doing so then i guess even an explanation is pointless. its easy to read or post from other links, shelling out the info in "LAYMAN" terms is what is required to help everyone understand.

    I can read from other links but u think everyone hear can understand the same. Thats Y i mentioned try googling more as there is no fixed definition to anything. If all understood it thru links then y would one have queries posted over the forum
  7. jayadev

    jayadev Esperto

    Messages:
    1,057
    Kannur, India
    Kannur
    Grande Punto 1.3 90 HP
    it is strange but truth that simple things are not understood easily.


    there is no gate or valve like device to filter in particular frequency only. in electronics you got option of filters only which attenuate the undesired frequencies to certain limits say 6db,12db 18db going below 18db system wont sound good or rather sound detached due to severe phase shifts in frequencies etc.
    if your midbass is set for 80hz lower cut and you increase the gain of bass in hu by +6db, what you are doing unintentionally and virtually is pushing the lower cutoff to 50hz or 40hz which indirectly happens due to rise in peak at lower end.
    that is why increasing in bass produces clippings in your case as you said before. this can be avoided by either using heavy duty drivers whose frequency response extend below those unexpected levels.
    my home audio 6.5 inch midbass woofer (vifa denmark) has resonant frequency of 30 hz at 250w rms. means it can go as low as subwoofer range without distorting the sound.even if i use it as subwoofers it would play happily but wont be loud enough to knock you off.
    my polk audio car speaker has resonant freq at 45-50hz and peak power of 180w max. means below 50hz at 90watts it may distort.
    so finally to conclude if it is a good ice, one will look into frequency handling of driver with power of amplifier .
    one cannot claim like"jbl midbass driver and sony amplifier with mdf box is best sounding solution and rest are junk "

    there was a case sometime ago when a guy brought his wagon r.(i am no ice installer but diy'er and audio enthusiast) it was full of speaker on all doors,on dashboard,on hatchdoor,under all the seats and a 12inch subwoofer in boot.
    he brought all the stuff from abroad really expensive it must be then. with all those bells and whistles there was nothing Wow in it. it sounded crappy and distorted.he showed me another kenwood amp saying "this was the previous one and the ice installer said kenwood is not good for big bass so i bought more powerfull one still it does not sound good."
    all i did was reconnect all the speakers in proper impedance matchup (even though minimum impedance is shown 4 or 2 ohms for max power but one should know if 8 ohm would be perfect match of power delivery and loudness) and designed a subwoofer enclosure with computer. (enclosure is physical impedance for loudspeakers it should also match so that cone diaphragm is well controlled in air suspension of enclosure without over extruding .)
    viola no more distortions at highest levels!!!
    yes clipping is a serious distortion. when loudspeakers extrudes to its maximum and still power from amp pushes then there is no sinusoidal wave out from loudspeaker but some flat or crippled sound more like a rattle it should sound.
    when power and frequencies are always just adequate for a system to perform comfortably then there wont be wave clipping it would sound smooth and clear. if you increase bass or treble only the bass or treble is increased not the clatter or distortion comes along.
    (-just passing a general info)
  8. Phew

    Phew Esperto

    Messages:
    1,109
    New Delhi/Mohali
    FASS
    Grande Punto 1.3
    Thanks to this forums are existant
  9. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    2,123
    Pune
    this one is a awesome package. can you share the cost of Alpine PXE DSP? what other DSP options did u consider?

    Also hows the sound output before adding DSP and after adding DSP if you tried it out ?
  10. fiattucine

    fiattucine

    Messages:
    32
    Ahmedabad
    Thanks Italia-Linea, music is a must when we drive so this isn't about showing off or stuff. In any case, the damping ensures people outside cannot really hear the whump of the sub or the clarity of the mids! The Alpine DSP costs Rs 18,700/- and was imported from the US. Worth every penny spent for the following reasons:
    1. Stock HU has no pre-outs so DSP converts the signals into flat signals and feeds them into the amps. You canot feed modulated signals to the amps, they have to be flat. Quality of sound is greatly improved since now the signals to the amps come from the DSP and not the poor signals from the crappy HU.
    2. After-market HU would have meant voiding warranty and losing Blue n Me. So that part is taken care of by installing the DSP.
    3. The most important thing is the Alpine DSP can take care automatically of configurations, delays(time alignment) and sound staging. No need to break your head, waste time, make mistakes, struggle etc etc, in order to configure, align and set sound stage :D Connect it to a laptop and voila, it is done in an hour or less, if you dont make mistakes and do it right the first time.

    We had also considered the JL Cleansweep and Rockford Fosgate 3.Sixty.2 but they were quite expensive (upwards of 30k) and sounded pretty complicated to configure for ICE noobs like us so we stuck to the Alpine. Sound difference before and after??? You mean with stock speakers?? No, we did not bother to try. Those speakers are crap anyways so throw em away! The best DSP in the world couldnt make em sound better :p

    P.s If you can afford to spend some, you could also consider the Audison Bit one DSP

    @ Naren, I suggest you damp the doors and boot. Also, I notice you have a 2 channel amp but you also have a sub. So how is the sub powered? I think you have powered only front speaker with the amp and hence the rear speakers and sub are on their own, right?? Big mistake.

    Its very important to match the power output of your speakers to your amp and sub. The cheapest alternative for you at this point would be damping and a 3 channel amp from Sony xplod since I see you already have one in that brand. Personally, I would stay far away from Sony products but then they work for a limited budget so who am I to say no? You could connect the sub and 2 speakers in the rear to it. Speak to a good reliable dealer and tell him what you need.

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