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Honda Brio Amaze: Thin wall Diesel engine

Discussion in 'Non FIAT Cars and two wheelers' started by Sat-Chit-ananda, Nov 21, 2012.

  1. ENKI

    ENKI Esperto

    That's just a market gimmick. Honda is a novice for diesel engine technology. A thin metal walled engine is no innovation in diesel.
    If japanese engines are supposed to be reliable, they don't win awards for performance/innovation either (Pls name something reliable from Japanese?).
    This is what Koreans are doing what Japanese did 30 yrs back. Honda/Toyota are Hyundai's of 1970-80's, Just look at the automarket 1970-80s.

    Mimic state of the art European/American stuff with cheaper & very basic design, though propagate in media like it has moved the world into the 22nd century. For eg. Mechanical variable Valve timing introduced by FIAT in 1960s is advertised by Honda as VTEC.
    All Honda did is think a new name for something that FIAT doesn't even advertise these days. Less power, less stress, smaller service intervals, hair driers!!

    This is Honda's last attempt to crack European market in which they have already lost. 1.6 ltr, 110 bhp & 300 NM. That's 10 yr old stuff for European in VW/FIAT engines.

    As far as Palio vs OHC of same era is concerned, it's a pity to see those OHC tin boxes where every Palio i have seen till date is still perfectly put together with no sign of aging. Good paint job/cosmetics & it would look like a car bought last yr. You be rest assured, A palio has gone through way more abusing than an OHC because of "failed" resale value & multiple owners every year. Every OHC looks like another box going to a trash bin anytime, whereas every Palio looks like a rough tough-stud. Mind your RELIABILITY if this what you mean by reliability!!
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
    10 people like this.
  2. amit

    amit Superiore

    Messages:
    767
    Navi Mumbai
    This is the favourite retort to prove Japanese reliability is suspect. Toyota was forced to issue the 8 million recall for unintended acceleration in US so I never really agreed with people who wanted to pat Toyota on the back for being mature on the recall issue. Still, despite the initial knee jerk reaction which resulted in a fall in sales, Toyota sales are back on top because people still believe in Toyota's quality processes and not without good reason.
    PS: I also read some articles that said cosmic rays were responsible for Toyota's acceleration issues. :evilsmile

    Toyota's PR department sure did a pathetic job at defending themselves!

    Yes I agree. European cars are more fun to drive, have better build quality and offer more value for money. But I don't agree that more features results in probability of failures. It's the way technicians are trained that results in dis-satisfied customer's. Most people understand that anything could go wrong with a machine. What irritates most buyer's is the inability of technicians to solve their issues. Problem is if niggles keep repeating car buyer's blame the car for being unreliable. And rightly so. No body has the time to think deeply on why issues keep repeating in their car's. This is what Maruti & Honda have realised and Fiat hasn't.

    Drive the current City with an open mind. Yes the suspensions are no where close to Fiat's but the dynamics are not light years behind. Let's not go over the top in praising Fiat.

    Yes City does not have a strong build quality but quality & precision of fitments is much better then what Fiat has achieved.

    In the Swift thread and this very thread, many of us have almost laughed at the light weight fuel tank in the Swift and the thin wall engine of the Amaze. The light weight fuel tank is a weight saving measure and world over car maker's are spending millions of dollars to save weight in their car's. The light weight fuel tank has a lot of technology built into it. It is no laughing matter. The company that made the fuel tank has a tech center in Pune itself. For all you know, Fiat may adopt this some day soon.

    I don't agree when people say Fiat's build quality is not appreciated. The same Indians appreciate the build quality of Skoda & VW. Due to the engine tuning and gearing Fiat's seem lethargic and people say it's because the car's are heavy that they are slow. We can't expect everyone to go into the nuances of tuning and gearing and how they impact the feel of a car. Hopefully, with better roads, Indian's will start to appreciate the finesse of European car's better.

    Add GM & BMW to the list.

    The low ground clearance issue is well known for a Honda. Like Fiat, Honda too has upped the ground clearence.

    Extracting more power from similar capacity is no justification for lower reliability. The manufacturer is expected to do their tests and use more durable parts if they feel the engine is going to stressed.

    If a Toyota or Honda or any other brand has a engine running under lesser stress, it doesn't mean they don't have the technology to build better engines. It just means that for the market in which the car is going to be sold, the manufacturer believes it will be the best state of tune.

    All of us smile when we drive our Fiat's. However, I am sure we would like to grin when driving them too. The tuning, gearing, niggles and pathetic ASC's have ensured we are stuck merely smiling. Regarding strut pads, why did Fiat have to re-design the strut pads? You gave the answer yourself.

    It's not just about the engine. We have a 2005/6 Innova in our family. It has done 1,85,000kms and apart from regular service and change of wear and tear parts nothing else has gone wrong. There is neither a single rattle nor a minor squeak from anywhere in the car.

    We seem to be discussing about engine reliability more. Thankfully, our Fiat's engine's have been supremely reliable. The problem area's are suspension's, clutch, air con , battery issues. What irritates me is that thanks to the niggles, Fiat biggest advantage of 15,000kms service interval got negated. What a HUGE bragging point that could have been if only Fiat had it's QA in place. The service interval could have also helped in having lesser service centre's and lowering Fiat's cost of doing business & also lowering it's investments. The possibilities were endless. Fiat had the first mover advantage in service interval and lost that advantage as well!

    Besides, a reliable vehicle is the sum total of all components working together flawlessly. This includes the authorised service stations.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
    3 people like this.
  3. gurjinder

    gurjinder Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    3,989
    Punjab
    I think we need to edit the thread title to "Yet another Euro vs Jap Gross Generalisations Bash Festival".

    What say? :)
    5 people like this.
  4. nkrishnap

    nkrishnap Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    1,900
    Bangalore
    Bangalore
    Linea 1.3
    Rightly said :D

    Each design has its own merits and demerits. People choose the one that suits them the most. There can be exceptions who put blind faith in a brand, but that does not become the norm. People buy Fiats or Marutis or VWs Or Hondas or Toyotas which ever suits them the best.

    Only time will tell how good the Honda diesel engine is, till then guys take a chill pill.
  5. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    2,123
    Pune
    Forget the US, check on yesterdays recall. Cars in India are affected too. Since 2003 we are driving corollas with probably defective airbags and after a decade we realise this.

    I just want to say that the most trusted brands also have problems.
    I said the same thing isnt it. More the features, more the technicians have to handle. When they mess out customers face problem. So if you dont have a blue and me, that wont go bad. If you dont have a auto climate control there are less parts of failure. The simple example to this is a " Two stroke motor vs Four stroke motor"
    Maruti too has a bigger problem with the new swift brakes. Initially they refuted the claims and now they are working on it. And who said Fiat doesnt work on it? Why did they upgrade the suspensions? why did they uprate the Aircon ? Why did they improve the interiors ?

    Basically i love all cars of almost all brands. I just love automobiles. But to be frank i dont expect a 11 lac car to drive like City. A volvo passes by fast and i feel the jerk. I speed above 120 and steering feels risky. There are undulations on the roads and the rear sways.
    This is not done when i compare it to Fiat or a Vento or Fiesta or a SX4 too.



    The outside shell is quality and quality. Inside the plastics were bad, but they do not rattle and they are well fit with hardened allen bolts, special autolocking plastic pins etc.
    Yes Honda has a better fit and finish inside, but honda does rattle on bad roads .

    Well then the first thing fiat should start with is removing the heavy engine guard right? It weighs more and also costs Fiat. They can go the honda style right. Not giving them? reducing weight?
    Check the seats, they are backed with sheet metal, fiat should get rid of that too right like Maruti? They should also shed weight by providing 175 section tyres like on honda city?

    We all know when the name " FIAT" comes in picture people without giving another thought say funny things. What about TJET? is it a slow car. Did it deserve the fate?





    Was it potrayed anywehre like people pounced the Fiat?



    This is no justifications. Its a fact that counter european engines perform better from equal CC engine. Yes all maufacturers design the parts to withstand the power it generates.
    So the Fiat engine is reliable.
    The other way round please ask yourself a question that did toyota or honda detune it so much that the parts wont hold up?

    Well i posted the in gear accelerations. Also the short gearing helps to clearly pull the weight on steep inclines. Once you get used to it its fun.
    Niggles and ASC - yes, they are spoil sports in every car ownership. i have faced this in almost all the products i bought. Vento, Alto, Linea, Fridge, Mobile etc :cool:

    Struts : They were European specs, naked. India is a heavy rainfall country. They used to rust. So they changed the design and provided cap on the struts. Good move i must say.

    Yes innova is a no nonsense good product intended for its use.

    Suspensions ? - sorted out , Clutch - was european spec cylinder, plastic ones. Indians use more clutch - changed to metal.
    Air Con - upgraded long back, what issues?
    Battery issues - very much new to me. Well on other side all the cars running on Exide have problems. Be it maruti or fiat.
    15000 kms interval - we already spoke many times and most of members change oil , filter etc at almost 8k too.

    The thing is on this forum we know the issues and so you listed it here. If you jump on other forums too you will see very similar and even more grave issues with other cars.
    Not that i am saying Fiat should also have problems.
    Its a dream of every product owner that the product should never give any problem. There are examples of our forum members running lacs of kms too. Some have niggles some dont.



    Lets hope this happens with each and every manufacturer.

    Basically like i said i loave every automobile. But it pains when someone corners a particular brand even when they have a good product. If they had a bad product altogether i would have never defended it, but this is not the case with Fiat.
    9 people like this.
  6. @Italia-Linea,

    Please cool down,Let us wait for a TD report and Amaze,find out how amazing it truly is and then continue on this discussion, just for records your points are valid.

    -Sat
  7. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    2,123
    Pune
    Sat, i am not at all refuting that the Amaze is a good car. Well the position of it comparing to the dezire is very good and it really beats it. A very good car with good space and a good engine specs for that segment.
    2 people like this.
  8. And the pricing too, I am yet to see what is OTR in bangalore, I guess it will be 2+ lakhs more than Delhi.We bagaloreans contribute to Nation more many in terms of taxes than Delhi'et yet to drive in 18 kmph average speed.
    P.S: No offence or pun intended.
  9. naveen2cool

    naveen2cool Superiore

    Messages:
    646
    Chennai
    Sat, you contribute to Karnataka and not to the nation :p
  10. What about VAT?

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