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Fiat is ranked #1 among worlds top 10 worst automakers :(

Discussion in 'Fiat Global News' started by pra.agar, Feb 29, 2016.

  1. pra.agar

    pra.agar Regolare

  2. gpunto75

    gpunto75 Amatore

    Grande Punto 1.3
    Thank God! At least its no. 1 here.
  3. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    delhi ncr
    Ha, do you know what 'consumer reports' is? A failed and loss-making consumer advice magazine (everything from toasters to cars!) in the usa, that nobody takes seriously as a car- or car-brand-evaluator. Why? Since their methods are completely lopsided, and besides, display a consistent obsession with.....'resale value' and 'reliability', to the exclsuion of everything else almost. FIAT in the usa's issues are almost totally to do with folks not 'liking' the touchscreen size and implementatation.

    This very year's usa J D Power (a firm with some expertise, data-wise and analytically, although still limited in some ways) survey shows the opposite: the Fiat 500 is the #1 micro-car in the usa in quality and reliability, FIAT is by far the most improved brand (over the last 2 years it has 'suffered' on account of folks in the usa not liking the t-jet multiair slight turbolag, relative to the big non-turbo engines they're used to, and not liking the ddct either, since their market likes torque converter automatics, or indeed cvt-s), has among-the-best dealership and service quality, etc.

    Apart from FCA's american brands and models overall being #1 in 'TOTAL Quality' (according to Strategic Vision, another old and reputed car-specialist consultancy), and highly represented in the 'Best Loved' and 'Highest Loyalty' brand- and model-category.

    Iyu likes this.
  4. SwifttoPunto

    SwifttoPunto Amatore

    Punto Evo 1.3 90 HP
    Well I am really surprised to learn this rating. But if we read through wiki Consumer Reports is a reputed agency. Looks some facts like their findings in other carmaker cases were later accepted by carmakers, they never lost a case, etc., looks they are genuine. However, as we don't know the kind of complaints, it is difficult to accept it at face value. But if it was only the India market then it might have been partly agreeable.
  5. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    delhi ncr
    They are a for-profit mass-consumer magazine with THEIR OWN sample of cars and carmakers: that is totally un-representative of the number of cars sold in the usa. They base their claims on phone surveys of their own readers. Their readers tend to largely be Japanese and Korean car owners, ergo their ratings are and have always been skewed badly. i.e., they're totally un-scientific, and do no research. Moreover: in their world even say a squeak from a seat or what a reader of theirs regards as a small or too-slow touchscreen has the same 'reliability count' as, say, a blown turbo or a faulty oil-pump etc.

    J D Power has Fiat as #1 for quality and reliability in its segment (small car) in the usa. And among the best in the industry for any brand, including Lexus and luxury marques, for dealer and service-quality in the usa (last year.)

    Everyone in auto journalism and the autoindustry as well as investors take J D Power very seriously. NONE takes Consumer Reports or its ilk at all seriously, other than as a means-to-marketing (or not).

    Very similar things should be said of....Autocar, Overdrive or ANY automotive website in india, including teambhp or indeed teamfiat. i.e., the information is skewed, tendentiously selective and totally-unsystematic at best (often un-consciously) and corrupt at worst (the commercially-run and -curated ones).


    PS: one must avoid wikipedia if one wants truths (of whatever sort), because although it is a non-profit: it is crowd-sourced. Crowd-sourced info cannot be seen in any form or content as in any way reliable, without independent verification and editing by 'editors' and 'researchers' and 'experts' or at least 'people with expertise'. Crowds are better than 'herds' at being 'wise' BUT they're still hopeless relative to good professionals with expertise of their field and the 'objects' that inhabit those 'fields'.
    Iyu likes this.
  6. vista7155

    vista7155 Regolare

    As I always said the reliable facts should be there to support our comments.
    Acording JD POWER survey fiat was last in quality in us for 2015 and 2014 and slightly improved in 2016 not better then any Korean or japs.
    If reliability is concerned not even earned more than 2 points.
    For 2016 fiat stands at 171 problems per 100 vehicles where industry avg at 152 and Lexus at 95.
    2015 is 161 and industry avg at 112(worst performance)
    Fiat wasn't only dead last, it was at the back of the pack by a significant margin. The company's cars tallied 206 problems per 100 vehicles (PP100) compared to a industry avg of 116.
    Even Jeep, the survey's second-to-last finisher, had 146.Fiat's performance was pitiful.
    More information can be seen in below link for 2016
    For 2015

    Leave about Lexus they are not even reaching the quality of Korean manufactures.

    If you talk about customer service index even worst the whole FCA is at last.
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2016
    Iyu, Raj_pol and SwifttoPunto like this.
  7. acechip

    acechip Superiore

    I'll just say this. Marchionne will do anything to save investors and salvage his reputation. And so, he may not even hesitate to merge FCA with GM in future.
  8. SwifttoPunto

    SwifttoPunto Amatore

    Punto Evo 1.3 90 HP
    As I mentioned somewhere else Fiat should not continue to pat on their back based on the feedback from their enthusiastic fans alone. In business one listens more to people who rejected products, who are dissatisfied with products and sometimes people who hate products. That feedback should be carry more weight than fans feedback. I don't know about global, but just look at the ad they created for Fiat India products. At the time of launching that ad, whatever ad agency told they considered are what fiat fans told and the ad is completely in line with that. So, you want only the handful fiat fans as your customers (many of them already would have a fiat car) which clearly says they are not interested in addressing the market and needs of customers. so, where is the market or growth for their products. That is clearly reflected in sales, isn't it?

    As I said as far as India market is concerned the findings of reports clearly reflect the current situation. Don't mistake me, I love my Punto. Still just see how half hearted effort it is from Fiat. I had two Swifts over six years and there was absolutely not a SINGLE issue. However, in case of Fiat it is not even two months there are quite a number of issues. Even in the product itself there are items which points to QC failure.

    I as a customer certainly want them to succeed, but if the approach is not changed, even if they bring new products situation wont change. I many times feel, Indian customers are smart in managing money and wise in spending. For everybody owning a car is not an enthusiastic thing, it is just a need. So, solid reliability, practicality, less dent to pocket and with this peace of mind is what they look for. These are not something that are so difficult to address compared to giving a solid and safe vehicle. Fiat has a solid product but just that they have put a whole hearted effort to address the other needs of the market (or markets considering above reports).
    Raj_pol, gpunto75 and vista7155 like this.
  9. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    delhi ncr

    Fiat in 2016 is....best in its class, in the usa is what i said. Remember: it only offers the 500, the abarth 500 and the 500X which have any other competitors. The 500L (a total sales-dud) is totally unique, a class-of-1. Better than Mini, or Smart by mercedes, its only competitors. Data on the 500X, with wider competition, will appear only later.

    Fiat dealers are NOT the same as FCA's other-brand, american-mass-market, ultra-high-volume dealers. They are, indeed, among the very highest rated in the industry there, for service-quality. Further internet research required, no?

    Please study methodology of research, as i've done, dig deeper: you will find the 'problems' for the FIAT brand (on the 500 and 500L) are subjectively-reported problems that would not even be noticed in Europe: turbolag from the 1.4 t-jet multiair, and the 'sense' that the touchscreen should be better, 'somehow', probably bigger and faster. The only real 'reliability' problem was 2 years ago....with the dual-clutch transmission, which too was NOT a problem (since it is well-liked and accepted in europe)....but an american cultural distatste for dual-clutch transmissions, a phenomenon seen with all brands that've offered dual-clutches (Ford, VW). The FIAT brand's bad stats are skewed by this ddct percieved 'issue' on the 500L. The 500 has great quality and reliability feedback, best in its segment.

    Google 'Strategic Vision', an old and very reputed automotive consultancy group. FCA's american cars are rated......#1 for 'TOTAL Quality'.

    FCA's models are rated all-over the place: revealing the erroneously subjective nature of telephone survey-based reasearch and data-gathering. RAM-s are rated high, but Jeep low. The Dodge Charger is rated high...but the Chrysler 300 (built on the same assembly line with most thiings shared) is rated much-lower. The Jeep renegade is rated well, but the Cherokee is rated lower (it appears for no reason but that many people find the as-many-as-9-speed transmission new and therefore 'wrong feeling'. Jeep is pulled down by the Wrangler.....since many buyers buy the latter for style and are shocked to find it does NOT ride as easy and refined on-road as a crossover, since it is a hardcore off-roader, etc. Some FCA brands are ranked much higher than say the equivalent Fords, while others are about-equal. Better than say equivalent VW-s or worse, etc.

    The spate of severe recalls afflicting ALL car companies, including ostensibly 'reliable' ones such as....Honda whose new first-ever turbo-engine on the new Civic is grossly afflicted by trouble, not to mention Hyundai and Kia, whose recall-incidence is also quite high, gives the lie to such 'telephone survey' based pseudo-accurate, pseudo-scientific studies.

    In the us market, though, J D Power does suggest broad trends, NOT fine-grained truths.

    (a) GM is vastly improved for quality, reliability and dealerships, post-Bankruptcy and very-generous bailout.

    (b) Honda, and Hyundai-Kia's reputation for 'reliability' etc is at best punctured/grossly overstated, and at worst: undeserved. Including in the latter's case: LYING about fuel-efficiency to the regulator. (Google 'nhtsa', 'recalls honda', 'recalls hyundai'.....)

    (c) some firms continue to struggle with Dealership-quality issues, all things considered. The post-bankruptcy FCA's dealers, on average, are foremost in that regard. Not so Fiat Studio dealers, though, who will soon also be Alfa Romeo ones. But both have tight-financial reasons or excuses, since this is a new, post-bankruptcy, post-merger company on very-tight-though-expanding-margins with legacy costs and issues vis-a-vis some dealerships. Similar, in that sense, to the FIAT situation in india: great cars, inconsistent dealerships, causing or perpetuating some distrust.

    (d) Toyota, but esp Lexus remains the undisputed champion at consistent, year-after-year Quality-Dependibility-Reliability as well as resale/depreciation values, far outdoing say the German luxury trio

    (e) such telephone survey results (J D Power, let alone Consumer Reports) are irrelevant to sales success, on average: FCA is the fastest growing in marketshare (for nearly 70 months in a row) and sales and profit margins. Jeep is ranked near-bottom, yet is the best-performing brand or thereabouts of any, over the last 3 years. FIAT is....the #1 brand in its (minute) segment, in the usa, etc.

    (f) the only stats that matter are: the officially imposed sanctions and recall-mandates by the regulator, NHTSA, here FCA has been hit, but less than many other 'ostensibly' better firms/brands, such as....Honda and Hyundai. Fca's recent nhtsa heavy-fine was for slow-recall-reporting and parts-replacement work, NOT for the number or esp the severity of the 'quality' problems which have so far (since Fiat took over) not been nearly as bad as Honda's or toyota's with blown engines and takata airbags, or Ford's with their PowerShift dual-clutch transmission, or Hyundai's with their false fuel-efficiency claims, etc. So far: relatively small and often minor stuff. With complaints of 'rough-shifting' 9-speed transmissions over the last 2-3 years, since ironed-out, perhaps not being an exception?

    (g) in terms of 'real' rather than 'subjective' so-called (self-reported) problems: there is a great convergence towards far-higher standards of quality, reliability, durability across brands, WHATEVER their national origins. The American and European brands have caught up and sometimes overtaken the Japanese and the Korean, who have repeatedly slipped badly in recent years (including Hyundai-Kia and Toyota). Which is why the latter have consistently LOST marketshare over the last 2-3 years, since the latter's cars continue to be technologically-behind, and less-characterful, more appliance-like (barring the newest Lexus-es), and are seeing their margins collapse, due to the heavy cost (esp for Hyundai-Kia) of discounting, generous warranties, etc. FCA's margins are rising, as are their average transaction-prices.

    PS: J D Power india found, according to their 'data' that the MOST 'problem'-prone premium hatchback in india was.....the Hyundai i20 (last gen) with 250+- 'problems per...', far worse than all its main competitors. They had no data for the Punto in India since.....it had not sold enough to qualify their data on it as statistically 'reliable'! Check out J D Power India's website: it is interesting and reveals a lot about the Indian car mart's eccentricities and wierdness, such as this case. the car with the worst reliability/quality record (the i20) is widely regarded as having the best! Which would be why it has sold like anything in the new, more expensive, less-equipped Elite avatar!!
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2016
    Hebbar likes this.

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