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FIAT India Sales

Discussion in 'Fiat India News' started by amogh, Feb 5, 2015.

  1. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    @Raj_pol

    See the thing is, we have to get out of our national-identity-market thinking. They cannot do anything for-india-alone, no company other than Mahindra or Maruti can (not even tata anymore).

    They are near-completely dependent on factors like (a) suitable-model availability in their bigger/biggest markets (usa, europe, LatAm, Turkey, now China too, etc) and (b) export-demand for FCA India products, whether r&d services, engines, transmissions or whole-cars.

    Accordingly: they've been "slow" and "delayed" with all-new models. In a market that has gone absolutely new-model bonkers (the only cars that sell well, outside of Maruti-s and the Innova) that've sold well in India over the last 2-3 are some, only some of the all-new launches. Also, the market's in a quasi-slowdown or even relative 'recession', as is the economy as-a-whole, so brand/dealer/resale/etc weaknesses are getting further aggravated. In slowdowns the dominantly-trusted brands+dealers do even-better, the weaker-ones do even worse. In fact Fiat's sales performance is pretty steady: it is a wonder they have not reduced to near-zero, frankly.

    As for Jeep (remember they are interested in brand-launch, brand-image-establishment, and margins in that order, rather than sales numbers which will come through exports mainly): accordingly first the signature vehicles (Wrangler+GCherokee), and then of course the localized C-suv + the sort-of Jeep you're advocating at Duster or Creta prices (please read my posts in the 'Jeeps cometh in india' thread?)

    The latter will be, am certain, very attracively -priced, the c-suv for eg being a few lakhs cheaper than say the Ford Endevour and several lakhs lower than the new Fortuner, version-to-version (perhaps not the full-on 'Trailhawk' off-road avatar), since it will have much-higher localized content, esp powertrains. And the small, sub-Reneagde Jeep will be based off the new Punto platform and architecture, i.e., cost-competitve too without sacrificing the essential brand-engineering-quality DNA (similar in that sense to the indian Abarth Punto in conception.)

    I feel certain the marketing will be adequate for Jeep. It has, IMO, been adequate for Fiat in India too over the last 2 years, or rather certainly since Kevin Flynn tookover, without any sales-effect however. However that lack-of-sales-effect of the number of ad campaigns has more to do with the brand-indifference and hostility already prevalent (i.e., closed-mindedness and/or risk-aversion) NOT marketing quantity or quality.

    Let's see whether the Jeep brand introduction and initial sales goes well (relative to the expensive segments they'll play in). They're saying a target of 1000 for the initial phase with just the Wrangler+GCherokee. No chance of that, of course, but say 500 is imo on-the-cards. Remember: the Fiat dealers outside of the biggest cities will also have the Jeep franchise, so the distribution-coverage will be very large for an expensive brand launching-in-India. Volvo and Jaguar-LandRover in India don't have THAT many dealers either, and they've been here years.
  2. gpunto75

    gpunto75 Amatore

    Messages:
    163
    Nasik
    Grande Punto 1.3
    @i_mysterious1
    I think it's the best fiat could have done to mjd1.6 in India, by giving it to MSIL. Just to assure a good number of engines. That's their primary business, and MSIL's their only customer. It's like a poor father marrying his beautiful girl in a well established family.
    Fiat would bring 1.6 later (may be next autoexpo) in their cars(Agea, Tipo) , if the brand exist by that time.
    And MSIL in any case, won't allow Scross to be a flop. That's not permitted.
    i_mysterious1 likes this.
  3. kk27

    kk27 Amatore

    Messages:
    202
    Kandivali - Mumbai
    Kandivali - Mumbai
    Fiat Enthusiast
    Very wrong info you have there my friend...
    (Source - http://motorbash.com/fiats-1-3l-multijet-diesel-engine-list-of-all-indian-cars-that-run-on-it/)
    List of All Current Cars Which Use Fiat’s 1.3L MultiJet Diesel Engine

    1. Chevrolet Beat TCDi
    2. Fiat Linea
    3. Fiat Punto Evo
    4. Fiat Linea Classic
    5. Fiat Avventura
    6. Maruti Suzuki Ritz
    7. Maruti Suzuki Swift
    8. Maruti Suzuki Dzire (also Dzire Tour)
    9. Maruti Suzuki Ertiga
    10. Maruti Suzuki Ciaz (Coming with a hybrid on this engine)
    11. Maruti Suzuki S-Cross
    12. Tata Zest
    13. Tata Bolt
    14. TATA Indigo Manza Quadrajet
    15. Premier Rio 1.3 Multijet
    16. Chevrolet Sail Hatch
    17. Chevrolet Sail Sedan
    18. Chevrolet Enjoy MPV
    Upcoming Cars That Will Use Fiat’s MultiJet Diesel Engine


    Now that is a very long list. even if you remove the Fiat Cars :) And this is an old one add to it S-Cross.

    Rather than sly on the fact that FIAT sales is low, do check the TBHP thread of car sales. Fiat numbers are shouldering on... the same 500-600 month on month. Why has it not gone to 0 can be a business case in it self. And you can't say that these nos are only from Fiat loyal customers every month every year!!! Coz that is just impossible. Which means new customers are getting added, somewhere somehow. And Fiat is getting few more re-hashes out with Urban Cross & Pure, So with those consistent small nos too Fiat is taking pains to somehow keep the interest alive.

    One thing you gotta give it to Fiat... I think they've more than recovered the R&D & investment costs from Linea & Punto... much better than other makers who've invested heavily in new models & not gained much traction.
    Ex. Tata Aria, Zest, Bolt!!! Maruti A Star, SX4!! Mahindra Quanto, Xylo. Renault Verito & it's sibling Hatch. Equally sales duds from Ford the Fiesta & Aspire which seems to be a dud. Tell me what have these companies really gained from the investments made. Clearly a very very big business mistake. And What has Fiat done?? extracted every ounce from the Linea Punto Platform & is still doing so efficiently even after 10yrs which is unheard of in the recent history of Indian Car Bazaar. This not only speaks volumes of Fiat's strategy but also volumes of the greatness of Linea & Punto platforms which even though 10yrs old still manages to shoulder on & quite comparable to newer cars.
  4. gpunto75

    gpunto75 Amatore

    Messages:
    163
    Nasik
    Grande Punto 1.3
    I was referring only about mjd 1.6 and not mjd1.3. And how fiat could gain more by selling this engine to MSIL rather than using it in linea/Punto. Its all about keeping the major customer happy and primary business intact. And it's good to all us if fiat maintains sales around 700~1000, as well as make profit on mjds. And how can one question about the Punto /linea platforms.
  5. vista7155

    vista7155 Regolare

    Messages:
    309
    bangalore
    @kk27
    Chevrolet will not pay any royalty to fiat because they were the equal contributor in building the engine hence their cars have different badging on engine and that is the reason they have small engine in beat.
    Premier Rio never found a single vehicle after initial release and god knows still they exist in india?
    if exists in which part of the country they are selling?
    Fiat is only left with Suzuki and Tata.
    If suzuki leaves then fiat engine business will also be bankrupt within months and let's hope suzuki doesn't do that.

    Regarding the new cars launched by other manufactures and failed in our market before putting the dud tag on them we should analyse why they failed and simply we can't tell that cars was on fault, instead blame the company who made it fail.
    Fiat is just incompetent in bringing the new cars and don't blame our market, fiat has self created this situation.
    If the sales situation continues we can see more dealers coming out from Fiat and create more issues in service.
    IMHO i have the below views of car listed by you for making them dud.

    Tata Aria: Failed due to high pricing(more than innova segment leader) and no fault in the car and also read bad marketing by Tata.
    Tata Zest,Bolt: not a new product Tata has built on Vista platform and already recovered money.
    Maruti A Star: Initially moved good but failed due to the recall fiasco it faced and created bad name in the market and wagon-R was much better for VFM,spacious compared to A Star and also costed less.
    SX4: Compared to City/verna this was never feature rich or powerful compared to petrol city / 1.6 diesel verna and also blame million rupee car was sharing same parts of swift twins and look nothing premium in this segment compared to the competition.

    Mahindra Quanto, Xylo: M&M really invested money in bringing the Quanto? they were half hearted attempt by chopping rear of Xylo and putting 3 pot engine which struggles to pass 110kmph in highway and still expects the car sale to soar?
    Xylo never matched the innova in comfort(Bumpy ride quality),reliability or service offered by toyota(Taxi/Personal customer segment loves innova due its reliability read as fill,shut and drive car it is).

    Renault Verito: it is not renault product, by more it is M&M(only heart by renault) again for which segment they targeted the car?
    it was not premium to compete in city/verna/sx4 category and by every means it was for Taxi segment where it was ruled by Tata by the time it was released and also read Tata indigo twins were much costed less.
    Raj_pol likes this.
  6. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    The 2litre mjd is being localized, for exports, for installation on export and domestic Jeep c-suv and Tata nest-gen Safari 5-seat and 7-seater versions. By 2017.

    It is a good bet that the FPT mjd-s are going to find their way into more cars from more firms beyond Suzuki-s and Tata-s in India, starting with....Toyota when their next-gen Daihatsu-version mass-market smaller cars launch? Or so strong rumours go.

    REM: most of the non-mjd diesels in India are plain awful i.e., quasi-illegal when it comes to co2 and no-x emissions and/or fuel-efficiency (relative to official claims), starting with the ones from Toyota, Mahindra, Tata, Renault-Nissan (dci). The VW-Skoda ones are expensive and fraudulent albeit improve-able, while the Hyundai ones do NOT bear regulatory scrutiny, no matter what the firm is credited for and claims ('refined diesels' etc).

    Suzuki will NOT be developing a substitute for the 1.3 (and 1.6 mjd). It will, instead, be investing in micro-, ultra-mild and mild hybrid tech with or without govt subsidies in japan, india and Europe.

    Much depends on just how soon, and if at all, the government cleans up and enforces emissions, fuel quality and fuel-efficiency/CO2 norms. This central government and transport minister will likely side with the auto companies as far as the public and/or the courts will allow, so the stated 2020/2021 deadline is just a line 'in the sand' that will likely get erased i.e., deferred.

    Still, the supreme court is already considering a 30% special-tax on diesel engines, so matters may come to a head.

    This will most likely not affect Fiat mjd sales (thanks to maruti's sheer expansion of huge volumes, and its commitment to the 'shvs' combination of mjd+micro-hybrid tech), and

    will likely greatly enhance demand for Fiat-india supplied diesels in India, since developing compliant engines is very expensive for many firms. India is, alongside europe, the only diesel-friendly passenger car market, and europe's soon moving-fast away from diesels (in tax treatment), so.

    Besides, India is (going to be) THE global manufacturing hub for fca's 1.3 and 2litre mjd-s. Exports.

    Point is: FCA has many more strings to its bow in India than most firms, and with the Jeep-s and with the Jeep exports is adding the biggest one by 2017. So: no sweat there.

    As long as they can massage the dealers along financially, long enough to see the upcoming all-new model launch cycle through (2 cbu Jeeps, 2 locally-made jeeps, at least 2-3 new Fiat models) to end-FY2018/2019.
    Turbothinghy likes this.
  7. vista7155

    vista7155 Regolare

    Messages:
    309
    bangalore
    LOL.... You are day dreaming Toyota taking engines from fiat to fit in their cars!!
    FYI Toyota are the best class leading engines which has proved their reliability than these mjd in all the parameters.
    They have the legacy where they started v6 Diesel engines in 1950 which served the commercial segment and about attending emission standard they still produce 2nd generation(1970 started) used in Dyna which still meets euro 5 emission.
    Still any doubts on Toyota capability of engine building?
    Tata still sells those suv and pickup trucks in Europe which matches Euro 5 emission and Renault has same engines and sells more car in Europe and abides the emission standards.
    still you make comments as fiat is superior and all other manufactures are quasi illegal.

    If you have some credible information then please post the source and I think without credible information your posts totally mis guides the reader.
    dadasaheb likes this.
  8. SwifttoPunto

    SwifttoPunto Novizio

    Messages:
    47
    Bangalore
    Punto Evo 1.3 90 HP
    Fiat will continue to sell engines and earn profit through that for some more years. But even a fiat fan would be interested in their vehicles and not just engines. So, for an Indian relevant question is are they selling enough vehicles, are they (along with dealers) going to survive and service in future, are they going to introduce new and contemporary vehicles? etc.,
    If they are earning profit through their engine business good for them and their investors, but not for us. At a certain point of time management will look into segment performance and say selling vehicles does not make sense or even before that dealers will give up.
    Even they and their dealer survive they will not be able to introduce new and contemporary vehicles.

    Nobody can expect consumer to make them successful. It is their own responsibility to become successful. Provide consumers what they want or atleast tweak/add to the product make it acceptable by the consumer. Every time when we hear about Fiat's failure we hear they are very good but consumer's have not given them what they deserve or Indian consumers do not value safety or Indian consumer's have heard mentality, etc. etc., These excuses nobody can accept and it will not help them anyway. They can continue to blame consumers and nothing will change.

    First they have to put a sincere effort for the market and then decide whether failed or not failed. Introduce multiple product catering to different segment then see atleast one segment can help them to scale up.

    People in India do not or can not buy their vehicles saying hey they are selling engines to various companies and making good profit out of that. If I have money and possibility I will invest in their shares saying they are making profit through sensible business model (??) But as the market grows and matures they will not be able to claim any share in this market because by that time all other players would have established their business and consumers would have rejected Fiat saying they are not worth.
    vista7155 likes this.
  9. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,446
    delhi ncr
    @vista7155

    Toyota is very far from having any history of making good, non-commercial diesels, i.e., matching the standards of the best diesel firms i.e., european i.e., Fiat, Peugeot-Citroen and BMW, etc.

    Their Indian diesels, small but esp big on the Innova and Fortuner, are surely the very worst offered in the market.

    Renault-Nissan's Dci 8-valve diesel in india is in the emissions wars in europe as we speak. Though it is otherwise a very fine engine, albeit not in the league of the mjd.

    The 2 litre mjd being localized for use on Jeeps and the next-gen Tata suv-s has torque@rpm + fuel efficiency/CO2 + spm etc performance that is vastly superior, from all accounts, to either Tata's 2.2 litre varicor or Mahindra's version of that same engine. OR: the new, upcoming diesels on the new Toyota Innova + Fortuner.

    Emissions regulations being codified and being-implemented in India (for the first time ever for ALL practical purposes) is going to make several of the current indian-market diesels offered either badly non-compliant (e.g., Toyota, Mahindra, Renault-Nissan) OR very expensive to upgrade-into-compliance.

    ERGO: the Fiat powertrain supplies will assuredly be increasing, since it is/they are (1.3 + 2litre mjd) the only localized, affordably priced, euro-spec/standard diesels in emissions, reliability, service-ability AND efficiency+power in the market. VW+Skoda's diesels are imported, as are Hyundai's.

    FCA's diesel engine exports and supplies to the likes of Maruti S will remain a much larger part of their Indian business than Fiat-brand sales, that's for sure, even imo when the new-models are all launched (through 2018/19.) And the source of their rare profitability in India.

    FCA has shown the way to other firms in recognizing India as a diesel-engine-making and exporting hub (rather than as a centre for large, profitable sales numbers): Ford is now making their bigger Endeavour diesels here or will-be soon, VAG will be localizing the 2litre Tdi for use on Skoda-s, VW-s but esp Audi-s.....but not Hyundai whose 1.4 and 1.6 litre diesels are grossly overrated relative to the indian mjd-s (e.g., torque spread, turbolag, but esp fuel efficiency/CO2 emissions performance, who knows about NOx and spm since there are NO govt studies or tests on the same) and which Hyundai can happily import away since S Korea, like Toyota via thailand enjoys 'free trade' priveleges unavailable to Fiat, Tata, Maruti, Ford, Chevy, VW, Honda, BMW, Mercedes etc.
    jackharrisw and Turbothinghy like this.
  10. Turbothinghy

    Turbothinghy Superiore

    Messages:
    819
    Pune
    Punto Evo 1.3 90 HP
    Toyota is known for its excellent manufacturing processes (kanban?), but that has nothing to do with their mastery on the engines, specially the diesel ones. They are reliable, no doubt, but they lack innovation as far as engine technology is concerned (when compared to Fiat) and hence go on updating/improving the same engine year after year. Fiat Fire and MJDs are also reliable and green engines. The 1.3 MJD is simply a marvel of a technology, tell me one manufacturer that can produce such an all-rounder, modern, small displacement turbo engine?

    So I dont doubt Toyota with their capabilities, but their USP is different from what Fiat offers.
    jackharrisw and prabhjot like this.

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