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Discussion in 'Fiat India News' started by amogh, Feb 5, 2015.

  1. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    3,000
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    @Turbothinghy, europe has been more Diesel centric market, therefore the best in Diesel tech and more refinements and technology and matter in them from these european manufacturers, therefore more offerings too. Even take case of Peugeot TUD engines or Dacia engines that are so well performing in popular taxi/tourist sedans here. They have pretty much been the leaders in Diesel tech.
    So 'Kitna Deti Hai' counts in a different manner. Obviously if a car gives 5-7kmpl with a large displacement for sheer performance tunes, it still feels impractical even if cost of fuel is no object.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 18, 2015 ---
    @KKAUL, the 'slight old tech' means that design wise the MJD is advanced, refinements for a small diesel inline 4, an engine so well embraced in India, not just due to cost, but also what it offers at that displacement capacity. Having said that I always feel the older heavier blocks are always good for diesels and possibly contribute to much higher miles of engine block life. But I cannot ignore the improvements of Fiat's MJD esp. with the cam designs and stuff which are better IMO. I cannot simply think of injection cycle capabilities as a measure of one engine better than other, although I know it counts too. Apart from that I think @prabhjot has articulated well about the Polo. Now again, if I am to think of a diesel small car for a city like Mumbai, I would rather think of a Figo as more compelling car all tech apart as it makes all the right sounds for a small city car; esp. a diesel one.
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
    prabhjot and Turbothinghy like this.
  2. Turbothinghy

    Turbothinghy Superiore

    Messages:
    833
    Pune
    Punto Evo 1.3 90 HP
    But then these cars have great tank capcity as well :D A 330i/328i with twin turbo coupled with paddle shifters would be great fun. And I assume that the people buying these cars wont be thinking of money as a bar.
  3. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    3,000
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    No money cannot be 'so much a bar' but then where are the roads to see these engines in efficiency bar. And diesel if I may already offer great performances. Also do note that there are selectable tunes in these cars for efficiency and performance and such. Anyways, I still think BMW or Audis are statements of class more than how much these car owners can exploit the fun out of these technological beauties.
  4. KKAUL

    KKAUL Amatore

    Messages:
    205
    delhi
    Grande Punto 1.3
    @asimpleson

    I do not agree with you at all on diesel tech
    You are tempting me to write though I usually refrain.
    Your MJD diesel tech clarification. There is no such High tech involved in cam design.If you really want to admire then admire BOSCH they are the real guys.They are just superb.The quality of the engine is only 2 factor dependent.
    1) The Loss control (be it thermal or mechanical)
    2) The Fuel injection system.( responsible for power,nvh,and exhaust gases)

    MJD fair in the second point and VW fair in the first point.
    MJD has FUEL system provided by bosch as you know and VW used to develop its own system in form of TDI current status I do not know.
    Since I am unaware of how the mjd is programmed in india I will be writing in generic
    In mjd we have 3 to 8 firing sequence of injector.These are only possible if you have very very low response time of injector.This means the firing of fuel in the cylinder is not done once in a cycle but atleast 3 to 8 times.These are usually called Pilot ,main and Post inj. Fiddling with these result in power and exhaust gas quality.A remapper basically alter these purely to gain power and insert power in lower rpm band.
    To make such low response injector is hitech and that is done by BOSCH not FCA though the later might have incurred the cost.I suppose in India we have a limit of 5 on our injector since we are using the older ones and these cannot pass the EURO 5 norms.

    The TDI
    solely developed by VW alone without any help .They did not have these 5 or 8 cycle but still they proffered only 1 injection main. no post or pilot.But lately I read somewhere that they had also approached Bosch and had some cooperation with them but exact I do not know.
    If you really want to see then just see the design power of TDI and MJD engine and then compare.
    NVH refinement is again due to the higher Fuel Inj cycles in MJD then TDI.
    BY far if you compare the quality of part then I assure you that FIAT stands no close to VW in quality control and ford is not even in sight. Agreed quality means cost.
    I can give you more than thousands of examles where VW is far far better in quality and they justify the price.IT is not the part produced but the quality and manufacturing procedure adopted by VW. In india there are many vendors which are common for both VW and FCA but if you see how a plant is run when it has to produce material for VW as compared to other manufacturer you will notice why cost is justified.
    Your new found love FORD: A company which cannot even produce bolts with proper coating (has to import plant from turkey and that too run by some incapable people )so that they do not rust is supposed to run a 100 bhp car far away from my understanding.Agreed that they can build tough car but at the same time they should last.

    It would be a never ending discussion but it is BOSCH who are the real heros in mjd not FCA.
    Raaz likes this.
  5. nkrishnap

    nkrishnap Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    1,900
    Bangalore
    Bangalore
    Linea 1.3
    @KKAUL Agreed on most points.

    But isn't FPT who invented the Multijet and Bosch manufactures these based on the requirement for Fiat. The MJD2 is FPT asset again right? or is my understanding completely wrong?

    Bosch Supplies the common rails systems to Fiat, there are no questions about it.
    asimpleson and Raaz like this.
  6. KKAUL

    KKAUL Amatore

    Messages:
    205
    delhi
    Grande Punto 1.3
    @nkrishnap

    Agreed that FPT has the rights for mjd and Bosch can't sell the tech to anybody else.
    But you have not understood my point.
    Suppose you are a vendor of Fuel inj system to FCA and you have a R&D team to feed. Since after the successful completion of mjd1 your R&D team is sitting idle so what you will do ,you will give them the new targets. These targets are not only assigned to you but also to your basic raw material vendors ,FCA r&D team and this chain will keep on moving.When a product is developed FCA has 2 option either FCA takesover your company or pay you some R&D fees.Suppose FCA is not financially as strong as your company so it will opt the later choice and get it patented. Siemens ususlly takes the first route.
    Similar is the case of TATA nano with Bosch though TATA holds the right of that engine.
    Increasing the power of MJD is solely done by increasing the amount of fuel in different ways but if your FUEL inj system is not capable to hold it over long time then You won't blame FCA but would say Bosch is not good.
    We can write n number of parameter to increase efficiency theoretically but iit is end of the day the manufacturer who has to see what closest he can acheive the set target.

    Denso is another contender in race with Bosch but some how I find that they have compromised a lot over the time and delphi has a very very long way to go.
    Raaz likes this.
  7. vIjAy_kHaSa

    vIjAy_kHaSa Esperto

    Messages:
    1,353
    Panchkula
    @KKAUL
    Bosch bought common rail technology from Fiat when fiat was in trouble in 90's. Common rail injection in passenger car was first put to use in Alfa Romeo 156 2.4 JTD in 1997.
    VW used and developed PD technology in their engines but were not able to meet new strict exhaust emissions norms now they are using Bosch CRDI system in current line up of TDI engines but seems they still can not meet exhaust emission standards(latest VW emission scandal).Even VW TDI does multiple injections in single cycle as MJD and so does other current gen CRDI engine from other manufacturers.
    VW still could not get their maps right even after so many years in India see any VW TDI ownership thread and you would note engine maps have changed multiple times. Quality concerns are with VW too just google VW Vento fuel injector leak, ac vent breaking, engine mounting etc.
    Fiat have its share of issues and VW its own. One can fight till eternity but still will not get answer to which one is better.
    By the way thread is going offtopic
  8. KKAUL

    KKAUL Amatore

    Messages:
    205
    delhi
    Grande Punto 1.3
    @vIjAy_kHaSa

    Sorry I do not know the history of 90's but what I know that BRAND Bosch who pays for the salary worked hard on that Injector and pump part to achieve that short response time effect.
    As far as VW maps are concerned those are more or less power centric not on the engine but till the wheels and that is the reason they are not able to get their maps right. The moment they learn to detune the engine, the maps will go right on their own.
    I do not want to google anything.I just see ,read and understand by my experiences.
    Run Your vehicle at speeds above 140 say in the tune of 150 and 160 and that too often for say more than a lakh km and see the difference yourself with bosch and other manufacturer.I have done these things a lot.
    If happen to see the thermal efficiency graph then do get hold of them and see it yourself comparison of both.See the NVH detailing also

    As far as woes are concerned don't think I am patronizing any brand but If anyone has done a good job then he needs the credit.I do not want to reveal much of my detail but If I could I can show you the example how things run in development business it is not always the company selling the product but somebody else.
    It is like IFB had been importing the Tumble wash hardware from Bosch just making the outer case and saying look we developed the machine.At consumer who knows the truth.

    As far as VW woes are concerned I am not denying the fact that there might be many.I didn't buy one though I went to their showroom studied it well and rejected it from my list not even taking a test drive.But the fact will still be the same they are much better in part quality.
    @vIjAy_kHaSa with due respect can you let me know your total driving experience till date.
    Raaz likes this.
  9. vIjAy_kHaSa

    vIjAy_kHaSa Esperto

    Messages:
    1,353
    Panchkula
    Sure Bosch worked hard on further developing common rail technology and is continuing to do so.
    I have done fair bit of driving at speeds mentioned by you and 2 weeks back only got stopped by cops for over speeding well above legal limit. No one can drive for above 150 constantly for even 10kms forget doing lakh kms at those speed, possible only on something like roller.
    Have done Chandigarh to Chennai (above 1000 km in a day before taking night halt),Chandigarh-Mumbai non stop several times and Himachal, Haryana, Punjab etc is routine task. 1.5 lacs on linea(most of driving by me), M 800 2.3 lac (almost 40k by me), Eon 50k kms ( atleast 20k by me), 30k on kinetic and 7k on new vespa.
    1.4 CRDI in i20 uses common rail system developed by Delphi while 1.6 CRDI in Verna uses bosch injection system. Unless you open hood and check pump or injector you can not say which one is used. Toyota Innova uses Denso injection and there are numerous taxis with above 2 lac or even 3 lac on ODO
    VW does have better plastic quality but mechanically they are as good or worse as any other manufacturer.
    Thermal efficiency graph of what component and further I don't have any resource to accurately measure temperature or measure efficiency.
    jackharrisw, asimpleson, Raaz and 2 others like this.
  10. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,455
    delhi ncr
    VW does have a high cost base, no doubt about it, which is at the root of both their now-destroyed reputation for engineering 'quality' of the very highest standard as well as of their failure in markets like India, not to mention the necessity they evidently felt to cheat: they could not meet emissions and CO2 as well as fuel efficiency targets others such as Fiat or BMW or Renault (diesels) were meeting (speaking relatively only, here) AT LOWER COST.

    VW has created over the years a 'legend' of engineering quality and superiority (i.e., 'German' rather than French or Italian or American or Japanese engineering) that has been failing to match up to reality for a long while now (mqb modular platform being way over cost, severe quality issues with dsg-s and with recalls in China for eg, severe disrepute for unreliability in the US etc). They're good maybe great but NOT nearly better or ahead of others, and certainly not penny-for-penny: their cost structure is by a distance the worst among all 'mass market' manufacturers, both in India and in Europe.

    Part of the legend is that the higher cost/price was justified by superior 'quality' of engineering. But nowhere more than in India: that has been exposed right from the outset (from poor old-tech 3-pot engines to exorbitant spares to downmarket steering and suspension systems, to, now, emissions and CO2 and fuel efficiency cheating etc).

    As for Bosch vis-a-vis FPT diesels: sure they work together, ater all FPT sold them the original crdi tech. And the current mjd2 (European) system with its low rpm torque, with big improvements in refinement as well as fuel efficiency and therefore CO2 emissions, as well as a wider torque-band seems by a distance the best small-capacity diesel range in Europe. Of course judgments of 'best' or even 'better' are just judgments and such debates are endless.

    btw, the CO2 emissions of the indian mjd is round 132 +- g, going by AUTOBILD India tests, while the others I've seen reports of (Hyundai, Ford, Toyota) are all 150-160+g. I have not, however, seen the VW 1.5 and 1.6 tdi CO2 readings (non-cheat mode!).

    If anyone knows the data do please share: I want very much to bet the house that it will be a good deal worse even the awful Toyota Liva diesel or the Renault-Nissan dci 8-valve one, let alone the mjd.

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