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Discussion in 'Fiat India News' started by amogh, Feb 5, 2015.

  1. Vidhyashankar Kannan

    Vidhyashankar Kannan Regolare

    Messages:
    271
    Hyderabad
    Hyderabad
    Avventura 1.3 90 HP
    @puntophile : Point taken. No offence or sarcasm was assumed anyway. You are correct in that different service centres seem to have different rates. Unfortunately, this is something which should be ruled with an iron fist from FCA India Corporate. But their laziness and indifference to processes makes this difficult. And when there is only one FASS in one town/city, then its a monopoly.

    We definitely look at our bills to ensure that we are not being ripped off. So you did end up paying 1.7 times the rate?
    puntophile likes this.
  2. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,455
    delhi ncr
    @puntophile

    We've not faced billing disputes with either Dhingra TASS (earlier) nor DRS FASS nowadays here in Gurgaon. My dad got serious dent-repair work done at the latter recently, too: reasonable. However, if they are struggling for 'return on investment' then it is possible that what you're describing (via a 'parda fash') may become an epidemic of mis-pricing and mis-quoting? I do look at bills, but not TOO closely, and escalate with a 'tit for tat' only if there is a clearcut 'tat': works at drs here. So far. The grumbling one encounters about kashyap and oberoi on such and other matters are more frequent than they should be?
    puntophile likes this.
  3. acechip

    acechip Superiore

    on that note, @Abh1nav , can you comment if Dusters ground clearance of 205mm is measured from its lowest point to ground or is it the max clearance ? And what about Avventura's 205mm ? Is it minimum GC or maximum GC ? I get a feeling, purely on visual clues, that the Duster underbody sits higher than its 205mm GC suggests, and indeed there appears to be much more "daylight" under the Duster, as compared to Avventura.
  4. PradeepM

    PradeepM Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    706
    Hyderabad
    Linea 1.3
    Hello acechip,
    As far as I know GC for all the cars is calculated from the lowest part of the car, usually the bottom side rails and the measure is standard across the industry. So Avvy does equal the GC of the duster with 205mm.
    Also just my thought for others on this discussion isn't the duster far more pricer than the Avvy. The actual VFM in my opinion depends on the input cost as well , now having said that I don't think the duster falls in the crossover sub 4m segment and hence we might not be comparing likes here.
    asimpleson likes this.
  5. acechip

    acechip Superiore

    I would ordinarily be under the same impression, except that some cars's underbodies hang lower under load. I know that my Linea T-Jet doesnt sag that much, BUT, with the same 4 adults, it scrapes the speedbreakers that my Micra sails through, inspite of having lower GC (154mm over 170mm) and a worse GC to Wheelbase ratio. So 'something' in the Micra underbody/suspension design works better!
    PradeepM likes this.
  6. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,455
    delhi ncr
    @acechip

    I didn't know that the Micra's gc-to-wheelbase ratio is worse than the Linea's, which is a long car. Are you sure? I think it is entirely down to its, shall we just say, 'light' weight. A champion car, for what it's designed to be, no? esp the cvt.

    Anyway the point is rather moot since the Duster and the Micra/Sunny aren't related, and moreover the GC on the Linea, nevermind the Avventura has long since become, shall we say, ample for pretty much all the desi-road/street/path breakers, craters, holes, crevasses and the like.

    But I have no doubt the Duster, like the Logan, is as good if not better, though perhaps not at handling...the WHOLE point is to accomplish one (here GC, however calculated) with as slight a trade-off of the other, GIVEN the biggest variable of all: weight (downwards, forwards, or sideways).

    The Duster trades-off build quality/weight/heft a lot, the Ecosport tradesoff/away ride quality and suspension travel, the Avventura/Evo/Linea trades the least off. That's my sense, at least, build quality and sheer weight should never be replaced imo, unless one is using composites/aluminium chassis-parts and even then, like the Alfa 4c and the Jaguars/Range Rovers, the sheet metal is THICK and heavy!
  7. acechip

    acechip Superiore

    With respect to weight, I still cant get over the fact that a Ciaz weighs between 1010 and 1100 kgs. In contrast, the Duster across variants weighs about between 1200-1300 kgs, which is not too bad at all.Of course there is the question of where that weight is applied. In Fiats you can feel it in the surfaces that users handle, such as doors, bonnet, boot.

    I feel there is no point in making parts unnecessarily heavy, at the same time, critical structural members should not be deleted. Am all for light wieght materials as long as they are stiff, strong and durable.
  8. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

    Messages:
    3,000
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    Renault has indeed improved the chassis for the Indian Duster which seems to be a lesser publicized fact. So yes this argument makes sense from the crash protection point of view. Also heavier construction does not necessarily counteract forces better from passenger safety POV. I don't know the exact equation to quote here, but maybe someone who knows the (mass related) physics laws better could cite them in favour of this argument.. :confused:
    prabhjot likes this.
  9. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,455
    delhi ncr
    @acechip

    Chassis and crash structure members can be made of anything at all, no matter how light, as long as they are strong and rigid, etc. The Ciaz uses 'high tensile steel', which is great, just that we haven't the slightest evidence of chassis+crash structure strength and rigidity etc overall, and have to take their word for it. Their word is usually either dishonest, or missing on such matters, so...

    But sheet metal has to be strong and thick and therefore heavy. For safety and especially for repair-ability. Which is why no 'luxury' or sports car, not even small light roadster-type cars (Porsche Cayman, Alfa 4c) have the lightness of build of say the Duster, let alone a Ciaz or a City.

    Let us not buy this 'lightness' spiel: it is cost-cutting plain and simple, profit-padding, taking advantage of the information assymmetry between the car maker and the buyer (no where more so than in India).

    Lightness through the use of aluminium or composites or even high-tensile steels, sure, but that's expensive now, very, is it not, but plain flimsiness a la Suzuki, Honda or even the Indian Nissans and Toyota-s (Etios, Liva) is just thievery. But these 'thirld world special' cars have other virtues, we are told: fuel efficiency and a 'halki hai' feel that has become a matter of praise rather than skepticism or scorn.

    High strength and durable plastics, ample use of nvh dampening material, highly capable suspension components, high tolerence-for-durability-and-long-service-intervals engine components...all weigh more from what i at least gather, at least in mass market cars for price reasons, so weight is definitely a 'good' rather than a 'bad'. Unless aluminium and composites are in play, which they rarely are at these price points.

    The Duster costs 10-14 lakhs. It's build quality is unacceptable at that price, especially for an 'SUV'. btw, it fared weakly in ncap crash tests (European Dacia). The newest 2015 updates may've improved matters? A car of its dimensions being so fuel efficient, nimble and even perky with a mere 85 hp diesel.....not through use of aluminium or composites, now, is it? Still, if it were priced a couple of lakhs lower, it would qualify as THE ideal-for-India car. At least its trade-off-s of build and material quality and esp sheet metal are tolerable, unlike Suzuki, Honda, Hyundai, and the Indian Toyota-s (Etios/Liva).

    A reason Tata Motors are admirable, whatever their other problems: they have been/are committed to making cars with a strong, tough build, including chassis and suspensions, and are therefore heavy, despite all the cost pressures/competition they face from the Japanese+Korean. The Safari Storme v/s the Duster, for eg.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 17, 2015, Original Post Date: Apr 17, 2015 ---
    [QUOTE="acechip, post: 841934704, member: 3346"}

    I feel there is no point in making parts unnecessarily heavy, at the same time, critical structural members should not be deleted. Am all for light wieght materials as long as they are stiff, strong and durable.[/QUOTE]

    That's just a statement of theoretical possibility and ideality, and too vague for any judgment as consumers/customers.

    And how is one to make out whether any of these theoretical possibilities have been fulfilled? Is the Micra's bonnet or tailgate adequately 'stiff, strong and durable?' Or a Swift or Honda City's suspension components, or any body panel, or bumper, or any chassis member for that matter?

    What does 'unnecessarily' in 'unnecessarily heavy' mean, exactly?

    The Honda City has the world's only aluminium diesel engine, in order to be light! But is it necessarily light or unnecesarily, given that it's a very high-frequency-servicing engine, with low tolerances, and as yet unproven durability? How do we tell?

    In India: we don't.

    We just go ahead and buy 'halki gaadi-s' as if they were carbon-composite wondermachines, and buy into the marketing rubbish from the cost-cutting champions aka Japanese and Koreans. We actually admire the fact that these firms in their India-spec models give us so much 'less for more'.

    The vast difference in the build quality of the VW Polo and the Suzuki Swift between Europe and India gives this 'light-ness' game away, am afraid.

    At least the Indian Duster is of similar build to the European one, and with better plastics on the dash too!
    puntophile likes this.
  10. acechip

    acechip Superiore

    Take the example of a Tata Storme. That is one humongous piece of metal. But I am not entirely sure if its A-pillars, for instance are robust enough. The body panels feel (and are) quite heavy, and probably there is the weight of the ladder frame chassis also. Could it be lighter ? Sure. Its adopted child, JLR is going big on Aluminium for its future design architectures. Some of that can rub off !
    And then there is that Fiat concept test of composite CFRP or something that you mentioned.
    Funny that aviation has taken to CFRP on many load bearing aerostructures, but automobile industry has not yet caught up.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 17, 2015 ---
    I dont see why Honda's Al engine should not have long term durability. I am sure Honda has tested it to that extent.
    prabhjot likes this.

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