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Fiat India - Future Plans

Discussion in 'Fiat India News' started by Ravi, Dec 6, 2012.

  1. Raj_pol

    Raj_pol Regolare

    Messages:
    495
    Bangalore
    Punto Evo 1.3
    @prabhjot I would say the opposite because to me they have never made a fair attempt - only half baked one's so far.

    This is what my idea of a full attempt is

    1. Release the new cars in both petrol and diesel guise (3 versions for each - base, mid and top end) in both manual and automatic format.

    2. Sort the damn gearbox - it is a tragedy if my Hyundai Eon for all it's faults gives a better gear shift feeling than the MJD (it is another fact that the Hyundai rides like a boat).

    3. Absolutely make sure that the interiors are premium - all the required essentials and more including good music systems, touch -screen, navigation systems etc in the top end.

    4. Make sure that all of them come with airbags and the other safety kits with the top one having 6 air bags.

    The only Fiat can do well is to take the fight to the opposition and then go a step further.
    vista7155, prabhjot and dadasaheb like this.
  2. bibin

    bibin Regolare

    Messages:
    297
    kochi
    Murphy_Fiat and prabhjot like this.
  3. SVN

    SVN Amatore

    Messages:
    73
    Bangalore
    Grande Punto 1.3 90 HP
  4. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,443
    delhi ncr
    @SVN

    The JEEP c-suv and the correlated Tata-s to be made at ranjangaon in 2017 will apparently have the 2.0 litre mjd, presumably locally made. It is indeed difficult to see why FIAT would offer the 1.5/1.6 mjd here, locally made, especially since (a) petrol prices here at set low foreseeably, and (b) Tata in any case have no models planned that'll be needing an engine as good (and expensive) as the 1.6 mjd: their models are all compact ones (Bolt, Zest, Nexon) with the bigger vehicles (Safari replacement, hexa....) obviously requiring much bigger engines, such as that 2litre mjd in 2017. Maruti, too, has little to no use for the 1.6 mjd: their new model lineup of more premium cars beyond the 1.3 mjd equipped (with or without the mild hybrid electric additionality) and selling well Ciaz and SCross does not extend beyond the Vitara (in 2017 or 2018)

    And of course (c) the new uncertainties over diesel emissions/engine capacity regulation/taxation, city by city, state by state or countrywide (??) as well as potential amping up of govt incentivization of mild electric/hybrid-ization INSTEAD of diesels.

    This does not mean an imported 1.6 mjd wil not figure in future India-made Fiats and Jeeps (say the smaller Renegade?), i guess. Perhaps FIAT should instead consider, if cost effective, bringing in the mjd2 injection etc system, added to either the dualogic amt or even the ddct, to the indian 1.3 multijet: 15-20+% better torque, much lower peak torque rpm, better fuel efficiency and emissions too? Better perhaps to spend the extra money and charge the higher price+market say the amt or ddct than for the bigger engine? But the mjd2 injection tech (not supplied to Maruti or Tata) could be good differentiator, and make the 1.3, already the best all-round small-deisel, just so much more clearly and emphatically the best.

    I guess, though, that this news if true also confirms that they WILL be going with the new Brazilian Punto+Grand Sienna+......in 2017, cars that will be apparently much lighter than the current Punto, Avventura and Linea, and so will not need the 1.5 mjd in any case. And not the bigger euro-centric model(s): the 500L, or 500X or Jeep Renegade, or indeed the Aegea sedan+cross-hatch.

    In any case, as the experience with t-jet and now Abarth sales proves, engine power/capacity/turbocharging etc is NOT a meaningful issue that accounts for any of the sales-number difficulties the brand's cars face in the Indian market.

    We should know all the updated details at the global production plan press conference that Marchionne wil be holding in January for all the brands and for all the markets and plants.

    More than the bigger diesel am personally looking forward to the introduction (whether locally made or imported or assembled etc) of the ddct on BOTH the t-jet-s AND the diesels. That may be a better way of cracking open the closed-market-mindset for FIATs than the 1.6 mjd? If well-enough priced of course.
    SVN likes this.
  5. Raj_pol

    Raj_pol Regolare

    Messages:
    495
    Bangalore
    Punto Evo 1.3
    @prabhjot Again there is an opportunity for Fiat to be a first mover. They have a huge range of petrol vehicles that can be bought in. I wonder if FIAT has any electric vehicles that can be bought - will sell in small numbers but will increase the brand presence.
  6. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,443
    delhi ncr
    @Raj_pol

    They cannot and will not do anything new on the engine front, until there is near-absolute certainty about the legal and regulatory position on co2, spm and noX emissions, as well as fuel efficiency. At the moment the uncertainty is great. So: like all other firms they'll be in wait and watch mode as far as new powertrains go, other than perhaps introducing the amt and/or ddct, and of course the 2 litre mjd+9-speed chrysler-made but licensed-from-zf automatic.

    Electrics and hybrids depend entirely on government tax abatements or even subsidies/liberalised imports, as of now, even in the us, japan, china and northern europe, let alone india. FCA has all the ev and hybrid tech it needs, but has hitherto avoided deploying it in vain and in waste, since Marchionne feels they cost too much to sell well-enough, esp when fuel prices are so low.

    The 500e and the LaFerrari hybrid hypercar, for eg. However, they'll launch their first mainstream plug-in hybrid in a normal mainstream model in the usa, the Chrysler minivan Town&Country, rumoured by insiders to be very very aggressively priced given their techological approach to the cost versus payoff problem vis-a-vis hybrids/electrics. Over time Marchionne says most models of all FCA brands, including JEEPs, will recieve this very hybrid powertrain. Problem is: petrol prices are so low, and so fca like most other firms is caught between a rock and a hard place. Meanwhile very mild and less-mild electric-uses on normal ICE powertrains will apparently be attempted by them (electric turbocharging, win-turbo-s, etc)

    In the main, until the regulations and tax reliefs/credits rules and the emissions ones too, settle down both in europe (post vw-dieselgate scandal) and in India, i suppose offering the amt and esp the ddct will be beneficial both sales-wise (somewhat) and in terms of fuel efficiency. Also: light-weighting. The all-new Punto and grand Sienna etc are said to be upto a 100kgs lighter than currently, so.

    There's no doubt, moreover, that they need a better entry-level sub-1.2 litre petrol engine (the 1.2 fire is excellently driveable, torquey lowdown, reliable, refined and inexpensive BUT its emissions aren't good enough) india-made with desi costing, as also arguably the mjd2 edition of the 1.3 diesel on the all-new models?
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 25, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 25, 2015 ---
    The dutch Italian-car-enthusiast website, Autoedizione, a nice mature one with repeatedly demonstrated evidence of access to insider-info claims that:

    (a) FCA will launch a variant of the upcoming, brazilian tall-hatch or small-crossover, the x1h, in europe to supplement the Panda. It is bigger than the panda at 3.8 metres in length. In 2017. And that it might eventually replace the panda. the main point being that it will be exported to europe from either brazil (or, who knows, like the Ford Figo/Ka, from India?!) just as the tipo/aegea bigger-models are exported from outside the eu i.e., lower-cost, currency-depreciated turkey.

    (b) that the rumour about europe NOT getting a punto replacement, getting a 500-style 5-door hatch is false. There will be a 500XL crossover bigger than the 500X but there will indeed be a Punto-replacement, likely to be called in 2017, UNO. And again, like the other 'rational, functional' models (as opposed to the 'emotional, aspirational, lifestyle ones like the 500, 500X and 124 spider) it will be built at low-cost locations and exported at aggressive prices to europe, being a variant of the brazilian/indian all-new punto-replacement. AGAIN: that can mean either brazil or.....India!

    If either of the above is true, or ideally both: giving the indian market another model-cycle crack becomes financially less hugely risky and more viable, maybe even quite profitable, for FCA India, along the lines of Ford, which is exporting the Ka aka Figo back to europe from their new gujarat plant. They sure have the spare capacity at the Ranjangaon plant, and even the new tooling costs etc should not be extreme since both these models are next-gen iterations of the currently/already-used-in-India brazilian Palio 'modular platform'.

    Esp if the x1h mini-crossover is decided upon for india, as the 'new Avventura'?, and from here for europe as a bigger, but cheaper Panda/Panda 4x4 Cross! That might amount to a good first-mover attempt with distinct usp-s priced say to go up against the swift/b1 hatch segment? The odds are stacked against the stigmatised FIAT brand itself, but if this 'news' proves true: exports to europe etc could be a financial solution, or a good-hedging of investment bets.
    bharath and asimpleson like this.
  7. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,443
    delhi ncr
    http://www.omniauto.it/magazine/35337/fiat-punto-2017-nuova-rendering

    This reputable italian auto web magazine has come up with a confirmation of the news that the Punto will indeed see a replacement in europe, in a version that it says based on its sources will hew closely to the styling and value-proposition-design of the Tipo/Aegea cars, and measure no more than 4.1 metres, off the susw or b-wide 'platform' of the 500L. the 500X and Renegade are off a more-sophisticated version of it and of its architecture: the susw 4x4.

    The Indo-brazilian new Punto will be very similar, but with a different chassis and other? architecture for cost reasons, or so says the good brazilian automag site Autosegredos.

    If so, exports out-of-India become possible and likely, then, in rather good numbers? After all, Marchionne has often said that mass european market models are NOT possible to manufacture profitably within europe. And turkey is dedicated to the Aegea/Tipo models etc. And if so (either the hatch and/or the Grand Sienna sedan version and/or a crossover/avventura avatar are exported from india in much larger numbers than the current Indian-turkish Punto and linea ever were capable of being?) it should easily be the case that Eurospec build and ride+drive quality will be retained, then.

    Don't miss the really quite smart, sophisticated and substantial rendering of the new Punto they've come up with, based, they say, on inside information. Rather/very attractive, beautifully proportioned, a stylistic improvisation on the Aegea/Tipo sedan with a glass wraparound c-pillar too, a la Fiat Panda.
    SVN and dadasaheb like this.
  8. Raj_pol

    Raj_pol Regolare

    Messages:
    495
    Bangalore
    Punto Evo 1.3
    @prabhjot I have said before and I will say again - the FIAT Panda of which I saw many in Italy is an ugly vehicle and is in no way going to sell in India. So if they are thinking of selling that vehicle in India then good luck.

    Now, from what you say and you have no doubt put facts after doing careful research - the earliest that we can expect entirely new models in India from FIAT is 2017. Fiat is selling at an average around 600 vehicles across India from it's entire portfolio (2 cars or 3 as one might opine). It could be that individual dealerships might even give up on Fiat if that be case in 2016. Why would anyone not move to opening a hugely profitable Maruti or Hyundai showroom compared with Fiat? In the extreme event we might end up losing the Fiat brand in India. Sure they would still be selling engines to Maruti and Tata but if Mr. Marchionne is willing to lose a country as huge as India then I am afraid I cannot for the world of me call him smart. We will just have to wait and see how it pans out.
    dadasaheb likes this.
  9. dadasaheb

    dadasaheb Regolare

    Messages:
    374
    Pune
    MH 12 (Ranjangaon)
    Linea 1.3
    They should dump Fiat name in India and come with new products under Jeep for SUVs and Chrysler for Cars.
    Seems nothing can be done for the name Fiat in India.
  10. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,443
    delhi ncr
    @Raj_pol

    Let us see. However, remember that dealers (even Maruti and hyundai ones) make money mostly or even entirely from after-sales service and spares etc. So poor or falling sales does not in and of itself mean a large number of dealers will want to call quits. It depends on so many other factors, such as dealership land rents, credit and/or subsidies from FCA, etc.

    Of course low sales cannot carry on like this indefinitely without causing a large-scale quitting by dealers, but the dealer count is not THAT high (120 odd?), most locations are relatively low-cost ones, some cities can manage with one or even two fewer dealerships etc. In fact, other struggling brands like Nissan and Chevrolet etc are seeing far more dealership disquiet and shutting-downs etc.

    So: it does not follow that 2017 is too late for the dealer body, on the whole. Of course the sooner the better, but 2016 is the year of the Jeep brand launch, and likely some nice variants of the current models (Abarth Linea? t-jets with ddct? mjd-s with amt?....)

    Nor are they any 'slower' than other strugglers in the market: Toyota, Chevrolet, VW and Skoda, for eg. In fact they'll be much-faster, since they will launch Jeeps early 2016. Also, i am supposing several of the better, bigger-city FIAT dealers may also be getting JEEP ones.

    So the issue is less what FIAT/FCA is doing or going to or failing to in terms of all-new models' speed etc, but of whether the FIAT brand will be provided enough of a chance in the marketplace. Their PROBLEM!!! is a demand-side one, not so much a supply-side issue. Witness the Abarth Punto's minute sales reception.

    We'll know all soon, with the january presentation of the global, all-brand updated production plan by marchionne, manley et al. So far, they are sticking accurately to what they said they'd be doing 2 years ago when the original plan was first enunciated, and are not off timing-wise by much (few months delay in the launch of the Abarth punto), either.

    As I pointed out in an earlier post, once they do one model they can rapidly follow-up with 2 or even 3/4 all-new models, since the models share platforms, most sub-assemblies and modules, and powertrains, both for the (eg) all-new Punto etc one as well as the different Jeep c-suv/renegade/500X etc one.

    When they do launch the all-new FIAT models in 2017, they would therefore both be able to and NEED TO launch a new-model every 6 months max, despite the high probability of a weak reception in the marketplace here. They can do so, since they'll hopefully have more bankable exports lined-up in advance?

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