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Fiat India - Future Plans

Discussion in 'Fiat India News' started by Ravi, Dec 6, 2012.

  1. shams

    shams Esperto

    Messages:
    2,388
    Bangalore
    For the benefit of those who do not know the meaning of 'placebo'-
    It is a substance that has positive effects as a result of a patient's perception that it is beneficial rather than as a result of a causative ingredient.

    source: www.thefreedictionary.com

    thanks to this thread I learnt a new word.
    jumu and Ravi like this.
  2. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

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    2,998
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo-controlled_study

  3. Raj_pol

    Raj_pol Regolare

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    495
    Bangalore
    Punto Evo 1.3
  4. vista7155

    vista7155 Regolare

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    306
    bangalore
  5. Anand

    Anand Timido

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    23
    Bangalore
    Bangalore
    Grande Punto 1.3
    It is bit unfair to say cars having frontal air bags alone are safer. This will only help in frontal crash. In case of roll over or side crash vehicle structure will play a major role. If dynamics and structure of vehicle are well designed we can reduced accidents/injuries drastically.

    May be lobbying is happening in Indian Automotive industry, If Indian authorities makes safety as standard for all cars, surely half of the today models cannot be sold in market.

    At the end its all about money and number game rather than common man life.
    prabhjot likes this.
  6. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
    2,444
    delhi ncr
    @acechip (a) we are not talking the US here. (b) we are not disputing the all else being equal benefit of 8 airbags over 2 and 2 over none in the same car. (c) we should not be disputing, likewise, all else being equal, of the importance for safety of weight (momentum=ForcexMass) and of build quality (d) what we are disputing is whether a Swift or a City or an Etios or Verna or an i20 with 2 front airbags is any safer in the real statistical Indian world (NOT in an arbitrary and unscientific 'lab' like NCAP) than a car like the Linea or Punto or Fiesta or Figo or even a Tata Zest that may/even if they come without airbags in a lower trim.

    This is not an academic discussion. In the absence of American nhtsa + iihs type statistical, causal, real world risk analysis, we are being told that airbags and abs makes you safer. Well, then, so does chilli-and-lemon hanging from the rear bumper (to be facetious)!

    What proof is there that safety is not much better enhanced via improvements in the build quality of chassis members and skin, better bigger tyres, better braking systems, better steering? In the real world. Since we are on a budget: we, like the regulators/ARAI/govt, have to decide where to allocate one's scarce money, bearing safety in mind.

    I think advocating in the name of safety the purchase of an airbagged Honda Brio or Liva or Swift or Ritz or i10 over say a Punto Active, or a Figo, or an entry level Tata Bolt is stupid, since we know the former cars have--for same or more money--worse build, handling, steering, brakes and tyres.


    How can it be that a Honda City costing 11 lakh rupees is even passably safe just because it has airbags+abs, when we know it has deeply deficient brakes, tyres, and severely anaemic build?

    How can a Swift with flimsy build, a weak chassis/body structure, thin tyres, and lousy brakes to boot be safe enough to buy just because of airbags + abs in the topmost trims?

    How can a 10 lakh rupee Verna given flimsy build and plain awful handling, high speed stability and steering, be regarded as safe because of airbags and abs in the topmost trims?

    NCAP-style pseudo-scientific crash-testing is not worth paying any attention to. Besides, it and its owner are dubious and corrupt racketeers, to put it baldly. What is needed is an American NHTSA- or Insurance actuarial statistical databased (IIHS)-- CAUSAL analysis of what is most likely to cause injurious/fatal/expensive accidents in the real Indian traffic and road world for which type and make and trim-level of car and, vitally, why?

    In its absence: my moto, after driving a number of the cars mentioned and being a former regular user of a Honda Civic, is that build (underbody structure not just sheet metal skin)+brakes+steering+handling+tyres get absolute priority for safety.

    And then, budget permitting, yes, ABS and airbags, ESP, traction control, ASC, etc. Which to my mind rules out all of the Japanese and Korean sub-D segment cars in the Indian market, I don't care how many airbags they have.

    As I said: a (safety-)engineering pig is still a pig, even if it has lipstick (airbags) on! In the real Indian traffic and road world, and given tight and low budgets.

    I personally know a veteran insurance industry actuary, now retired, who swears that the statistics he has seen through his career, on Maruti-s and Honda-s are obscenely bad, and out of all proportion to Tata, let alone Fiat or Ford.

    Besides, a Fiat Linea emotion or a Ford Fiesta Titanium with abs and airbags is available here for WAY more than a lakh less than a City. Similar thing applies to a Tata Bolt or a Punto or a Figo (old/new?) vis-a-vis a Hyundai i10, i20 elite or a Maruti Swift.

    Now, @acechip you are dead right, pun unintended, about Fiat's failure to market its higher safety/better build etc, and about how, together with the likes of Autocar and NCAP-cum-ndtv, the likes of Hyundai and Honda will and already are playing this whole 'safety feature' game all too cannily. Not to mention VW. Sigh.

    @Raj_pol thanks for that link of the Swedish transport sage, terrific.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 4, 2015, Original Post Date: Feb 4, 2015 ---
    @vista7155 Hi.

    Google Max Mosley. You could read up on him and his sordid history and ethics, and how exactly it was that he managed to get ncap official governmental support as a 'standard setter'. If you dredge deeper: it will not take you long to figure out that ncap and max mosley are trying to repeat that in the Indian, Chinese and LatAm markets, as a business venture not out of any even minimally reasonable/plausible public concern or crash safety 'science'. It is very clear that ncap and Max Mosley are deeply collusive with car manufacturers, especially but not only European ones, since his 'business model' is funded by them, as they pay for his certifications, often via blackmail/extortion-like maneouvers, like he has just launched in India against Maruti and Nissan/Datsun (much as these firms' Indian cars are indeed troublingly safety-deficient.)

    NCAP is not like the American NHTSA, neither is it like IIHS, or IHS, or the Swedish transport-safety regulators that Raj_Pol gave a link to in an earlier post. It is a (corrupt) business led by a putrid businessman disguised as a 'charity', not a public-service, 'disinterested' party.

    However, it is certainly better than the Indian ARAI and our neta-s/police/RTO etc!:p:eek:
    jackharrisw and adisrini1103 like this.
  7. adisrini1103

    adisrini1103 Amatore

    Messages:
    243
    Coimbatore
    Linea 1.3
    I'd second Mr. @prabhjot There is no use of airbags if the car intrudes into the cabin in a crash. Head injuries are caused coz of drivers not wearing the seat belt (primary reason) cases that happen beyond injuries in this case, is due to speeds speeds over 100kmph which even passengers in volvo could face death no airbag can save @ this speeds. Most people dont wear seatbelts hence in this case having an airbag model has no point.

    a Punto active is anyday better than a Swift ZDi trim. who knows the airbags might not even deploy (all electronic stuff has a failure rate of 1/million) - I'm not against electronics here . i'm just telling we look at the millionth probability to keep our lives safe.

    I,m trying to say a strong body increases the probability of coming out alive than two balloons popping out from the dash board.

    Airbags makes a safe car safer and cannot make a completely unsafe car(tin cans), safer by any percent.

    Fiat cars are just perfect for india... Fiat just never bothers to advertise here

    did you guys just look at the 500x london launch. this clearly shows their interest.

    *tin can build means less/weakly reinforced structure and not just the sheet metal thickness ........ there is a lot of offence going for the term "tin-can build".
    prabhjot likes this.
  8. asimpleson

    asimpleson Esperto

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    2,998
    Heptanesia
    Linea 1.3
    Guys it looks like this topic needs a separate thread to discuss the Real World Effectiveness of Safety Systems in cars.

    Mods request you to push all the related posts to a separate thread. @Ravi , @ramjn
    acechip and prabhjot like this.
  9. vista7155

    vista7155 Regolare

    Messages:
    306
    bangalore
    asimpleson likes this.
  10. prabhjot

    prabhjot Esperto

    Messages:
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    delhi ncr
    @vista7155

    The Indian NCAP expose-tests and I think also the LatAm and China and ASEAN NCAP-s, all part of an emerging, booming car market push, are very much promoted by the Max Mosley NCAP.

    If my research is not wrong, Max Mosley was and remains?, via his leadership/promoter status of FIA (the equivalent of the International Olympic Committee for autoracing), the prime mover and organiser and lobbyist etc for the setting up of the now-official, EU+national governments EuroNcap. He has an originary hand in both NCAPs.

    Refer to Max Mosley's biographical profile, along one, in wikipedia and elsewhere?

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