1. Introducing the smashing new Team FIAT T-Shirt !! To order yours click here : Team FIAT T-Shirt

EGR Cleaning

Discussion in 'Engine Compartment' started by amolmane, Nov 22, 2010.

  1. The way any modern engine is desired to wrok is called strategy :)..what else.

    About the learning :
    And you are correct about the solenoid actuator..how is the ageing taken care..over a period of time of usage the actuator become weak..and instead of closing the flap to 100% it may close it to 95%. in that case what happens ?
  2. gurjinder

    gurjinder Staff Member Janitor

    I think we are spending way too much of time on assumptions rather than actual facts.

    Italia-Linea has posted credible facts based upon his actual experience of working closely with the Multijet engine.

    I would let the matter rest here.

    Any more discussions based on assumptions may be carried on via PM's.
  3. Akshay4384

    Akshay4384 Superiore

    I was on Himalayan expressway yesterday,and there was this Linea ahead of me,i was surprised with the amount of smoke it was spewing out of the exhaust,and was literally crawling with each and every possible vehicle going ahead of it,i think a perfect case of a clogged up manifold,and a dirty airfilter and EGR valve.
  4. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    If its smoking bad it has to be the turbo hoses bust. Many lineas face this issue. The turbo hoses rupture and then linea starts smoking out badly.
  5. Sam

    Sam Amatore

    buddies, I have several queries after going through this thread. We are saying we can get rid of the EGR either by a blanking plate (on non-mjds) or remapping ECU (on mjds but yet not reliable) but arent EGR there for a purpose? It helps us save environment by reducing the NOx emission which is ultra harmful. Won't we emit more NOx if we get rid of it? Will it not create more harmful environment for us and our childrens? Does it all justify for a little more hike in power and FE?
    1 person likes this.
  6. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    True EGR is there for a purpose. Saving the environment. But its individual decision whats to be done. You have given a good thought " Enviroment for our children". Cheers.
  7. Sam, After going for pollution check, i am convinced there is not much of increase in the pollution after disabling the EGR.
    Imagine due to EGR you get less efficiency in combustion and hence less FE,you have fill more fuel to compensate and cover the distance as range goes down,whether we like it or not every liter of fuel will emit 2+KG of exhaust gases.
    Another thing to note is less or no black smoke from tail pipe after EGR is put to sleep,don't you feel particulate is also harmful?
    I see so many Diesel cars emitting black smoke , why the hell EGR is not preventing it it is supposed to recirculate all the unburnt fuel??

    EGR only works with light throttle or Lower RPM,when you are on triple digit speeds EGR is closed,EGR also gets closed on very low speeds with AC ON.If EGR is solution for Nx02,how it is compensated at higher speeds? it is done by the way of increased fueling more quantity of fuel.
    Same way when EGR is deleted a tuner can increase the fueling a bit to reduce the combustion temperature same way as EGR does it,but because the efficiency of combustion is more we still get better FE.but the flip side is my car doesn't idle very lean like how it used to do in stock, and during B2B traffic FE goes down by 20%.
    I know there are people who will disagree with me and flame me for this but what I wrote is a fact that i experienced my self.Pollution test was first requirement I put forward to Siddarth when i went for remap and i am happy I am still with green zone.
    EGR implementation is questionable,look at the below article that appeared in Forbes.

    Death By Hubris? The Catastrophic Decision That Could Bankrupt A Great American Manufacturer - Forbes

    This story appears in the Aug. 20, 2012 issue of Forbes magazine:

    UPDATE: On Aug. 2, after this story was published, Navistar announced several steps to address its troubles, including new financing. It also said it faces an SEC probe.

    This is the story of what happens when you gamble—and lose. When you get reasonable advice—and ignore it. And when one smallish decision cascades into a bet-the-company one.

    In 2001 Dan Ustian, then head of Navistar International’s diesel engine unit, faced a slew of new air quality regulations from the Environmental Protection Agency. More stringent engine standards were already set to take effect three years hence, and the EPA was now requiring at least a 90% reduction in the amount of nitrogen oxides and soot emanating from diesel engines. Even diesel fuel itself was being reformulated to cut down on its sulfur content.

    The new rules meant that Navistar, as well as rivals like Volvo, Mack, Freightliner, Paccar and Cummins, would have to redesign all their engines for American roads, using technologies that were less than perfect or inventing new ones. EPA estimated the cost of compliance, including the new fuel, would be substantial: $4.2 billion. But engine makers would have plenty of time to adapt. The new standards wouldn’t even begin to be phased in until 2007, with full implementation slated for 2010.

    Ustian had several engineering paths available, including the use of nitrogen oxide adsorbers (“traps”) or a chemical treatment system called selective catalytic reduction, which European rivals favored. But neither was yet capable of achieving the eventual EPA requirements—they’d need further engineering development.

    Ustian, then in his early 50s, was Navistar’s rising star—a professional manager, rather than an engineer, he would soon be promoted to president and then chief executive. Rather than following rivals with SCR, he decided, fatefully, to go with his gut. He figured truckers didn’t want to bother with an extra tank of fluid aftertreatment, so Ustian staked $700 million—and the fate of the company—on further advancing an existing diesel engine technology called exhaust gas recirculation (EGR). Rather than eliminate nitrogen oxide via a bulky chemical treatment system that even the EPA questioned initially, EGR would make the motor do all the work by piping exhaust gas back into the cylinders and burning it again—a cleaner, cheaper, lower-maintenance solution, which would set Navistar ahead of the pack. “Our ability to achieve our goals without adding customer cost and inconvenience is a competitive advantage,” Ustian told investors in late 2007.

    All his engineers would have to do is perfect it.

    That decision is now proving catastrophic. As the project developed and 2007 turned into 2008 and 2009 it became increasingly obvious—to everyone but the CEO, says one former manager who was close to Ustian—that Navistar had done worse than pick the diesel version of Betamax when the rest of the world was going to VHS. It simply couldn’t get its engines to work as hoped. “Dan is telling his technical people, ‘You’ve got to deliver,’ and they’re saying, ‘We don’t know how, but we’ll try,’” says the former executive. “There was a lot of tension in the technical community, from the scientists on up to the managers, about whether we should be agreeing to something we don’t know how to do. Dan didn’t want to hear any of it. ‘You’re going to get it done.’ He’s a positive thinker. He doesn’t like negative thinking.”

    Now, two and a half years past the deadline for compliance, Navistar’s engine still isn’t clean enough to pass the EPA’s emissions test. On July 6, after an appeals court rejected an EPA compromise that allowed Navistar to keep selling its noncompliant engines with offsetting penalties, Ustian made an about-face, reluctantly embracing the very technology he had spurned for years.

    The strategy reversal was more than just an embarrassment to Ustian, who spent years deriding his competitors’ approach, even suing the EPA and pushing for a recall of their engines (neither of which was successful). It could also mean the collapse of the company.

    Its pretax loss in the first half of 2012 was $516 million on revenues of $6.4 billion as new truck sales stalled out and quality problems on its earlier engines required Navistar to boost its warranty reserves by $227 million. More alarming, perhaps, future orders plummeted 40% in the second quarter, making promised market share gains highly unlikely. Navistar shares have been punished, down more than 50% in the last 12 months. The Illinois-based company, which did more than $14 billion in sales last year, now has a market cap of around $1.6 billion.

    - - - Merged Post - - -

    There are some alternatives to EGR currently in research stages.

    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
    1 person likes this.
  8. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    @Sat-chit-ananda , you are absolutely right. EGR decreases the efficiency of the engine. Infact you see more soot due to EGR itself. So many cars were later fitted with DPF(Diesel Particulate Filter).

    EGR mainly concentrates on NOx and coupled with catalytic converter other harmful gases.

    When EGR is deleted , european cars fail the MOT emmission tests which are mandatory in Europe every 2 years or so(dont remember exactly).

    EGR if deleted perfectly by negating all te compensations written in ECU can be good. But if some logics remain or if tuner forgets to remove them then we dont know what it leads too.

    If you have deleted the EGR, i would suggest you to get rid of blowby gases too. This will help more.
    1 person likes this.
  9. I am waiting for your Oil catch can DIY,I see in older cars it it left to out side atmosphere,are you suggesting that.
  10. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    What i have done is (but removed for a while- due to another project going on) , cut the line coming from the original oil seperator and added a oil catch can inline. In the pic below the oil gets collected in the glass chamber. The glass chamber has a drain below or you can remove the glass chamber and dump the oil safely somewhere.
    On the second side of the oil catch can i have put a breather filter. I can see some dry fumes coming out of that and they smell bad but cant help it :)

    In older cars they were left out beneath the car. In 1960s or so all european and us roads used to have a dark oil line inbetween the roads due to this - lol.

    oil catch can.jpg

Share This Page