1. Introducing the smashing new Team FIAT T-Shirt !! To order yours click here : Team FIAT T-Shirt

EGR Cleaning

Discussion in 'Engine Compartment' started by amolmane, Nov 22, 2010.

  1. gurjinder

    gurjinder Staff Member Janitor

    The original query was in relation to a custom remap Amit.

    In stock setups - yes we have to do with the EGR mumbo jumbo and all the justifications that the manufacturers and the green guys provide.

    But while doing a custom remap, the only justification for the EGR can be either :

    a. It is virtually impossible to delete EGR.
    b. The guy doing the remap is unaware how to completely delete the EGR.
  2. bna

    bna Novizio

    The EGR map in the ECU of a 90hp has references to other maps. Hence deleting the EGR map is very time consuming. Instead of that its easy to control the % opening when your writing a custom map.
  3. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    On high rpms and high loads EGR closes , but the ECU does supply more fuel and more air and complies with various other load conditions.
    Under low rpms and lean mixtures with EGR operating ECU computes differently and ensures all parameters are in range.

    When EGR is deleted on low rpms ECU is still computing / compensating as if EGR is there and when its actually not there the parameters are definitely not in range.

    On highways as it is engine runs cooler. In low rpms in city the engine runs hotter- and varrying load conditions . Its quite obvious cars running mostly on highways have better life than cars running in city.

    Yes its very easy to delete EGR on DI indica - just put a blanking plate.
    But boss - This is the legendary MULTIJET , and we already know how complex the engine and ECU is.

    So please keep comparison with indica at bay. We cannot judge that if indica is running lacs of kms without egr that means MJD will also run lacs of kms without EGR. Who has seen whats the condition inside the engine on those indicas, even with pitting etc all engines keep running.

    - - - Merged Post - - -

    Well in case of MJD you very well know the complexity. Even i am too much keen to delete EGR. You wont believe i have spoken with so many tuners regarding this.
    Cosworth - which is very reputed firm, denies deleting EGR due to detrimental effects.

    Siddharth- He is somewhat ready to do it, says connector is to be kept removed, inturn he will remap so that engine check light doesnt come. But i am not yet clear what all parameters that are built in by magnetti marelli to compensate egr running etc is he going to modify. I cannot comment if he really knows 100% parameters that are there.

    Tuners in UK - they say EGR can be deleted, but costly affair as they have to change a hell lot of parameters on our ECUs. He told me that there is so much complexity that it took their team of 25 engineers 2 years to completely make sure that deleted egr is not affecting somewhere.

    So still its a jugglery.
    1 person likes this.
  4. Once the engine revs higher(2300 RPM+) there definite increase in the exhaust gas temperature,try it your self if you would like.
    Heat is created by number of factors with in the engine friction between rings and wall of the cylinder is the major one. Siddarth's own Optra has covered over 1 lakh Kms , he sold his old swift after some 60K Kms and new the new swift he has also covered quite few mils, i don't remember exactly.

    EGR came to picture only in 1984,do you mean to say all cars which ran with out EGR were having burned out valves/Pitted/corroded engines due to heat?

    If the deletion of EGR was having so many detrimental effects and ECU still thinks EGR is there and adjusts the parameters, Why his Optra is running rock solid till now. It is due for it's flywheel and clutch job.

    My statements can be proved if we have testing gear but I do feel what ever you are talking is more of apprehension.
    I will be opening my intake manifold after at 70 K Kms we can see if there is any soot inside,blow by gases can cool down and create oily deposits but soot will come from EGR.
    That will be true test but we may need to wait for 2 year for that, if I am alive until then ,I will still have punto and sure I will post the results.
    But I did open the MAP sensor for second time after manifold cleaning and 1500 kms of drive , I couldn't not find the soot.That it self it convincing for me.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2012
    1 person likes this.
  5. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    Are boss, you are not getting my point. Cars that dint have EGR had different ecu mapping. So there is no question of overheating in it. They run around as it is, no compensations etc

    Here some great engineers have designed the engine with EGR considering many factors and complex maps. Do you think the compensations they have put is there for no reason?

    Again you are comparing optra engine with MJD. There are so many cars on which you can just put a blanking plate on egr and still ECU doesnt give any error.
    I think we should discuss just the Fiat MJD here. If you dont believe just GOOGLE and speak to few tuners who have worked extensively on Fiat multijets.

    As i said i am more eager to delete EGR. I dont want that EGR and also blowby gases mixing with it. I already have deleted blowby gases going into the engine as there is no ECU mapping for it.

    But for EGR its a different ball game.

    I have opened my intake manifold 3 times till date. With no blowby gases going in i dont have greasy stuff in my intake now. Earlier EGR soot + Blowby = Greasy goo was there in my intake.

    Why do you want to test and prove by opening your intake - I myself can tell you that if you dont have your EGR working your intake is clean. I would further suggest you to add oil catch can like i did so that even blowby wont go in your intake.

    - - - Merged Post - - -

    This is what Redbull spoke with Siddharth.
    2 people like this.
  6. vIjAy_kHaSa

    vIjAy_kHaSa Esperto

    Amit bhai please do a DIY guide on Oil Catch Can or just post pics of connectors you used to tap into pipes.
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2012
  7. Last edited: Dec 24, 2012
  8. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    Agree Sat-Chit-Ananda , a healthy discussion is always good for all forum members, we all are in learning curve which is a never ending process.

    I will again create a DIY thread for Oil Catch Can, I had requested mods to delete my earlier oil catch can thread for personal reasons.

    this time i will post specifically for Fiat cars with dimensions of pipe etc, so that one can just go to the market buy the stuff without worry and put them on.
    2 people like this.
  9. Nice to see a great discussion going on EGR.

    I would like to add some information from my side.

    Basically EGR can be used to reduce emission (in particulat harmful NOx), which are generated when there is excess air (0xygen) during combusiton. the unused oxygen reacts with Nitrogen to form NOx which are harmful.

    Another thing could could be during cold start. at this point when the intake air temeprature is very low, a controlled amount of exhaust is mixed to increase the intake air temerature.

    It again depends on how the ECU or ECM is calibrated to work in various senarios. So this is a Fiat internal stragegy which none of us might know.

    Now i also heard, about soot deposition and corrosion of the EGR due to high temepratures. I have not see where this EGR is located on my Punto, but if any of you have a picture of it, it may be helpful. The EGR should in general withstand all the soot and temperature. It should have its own factor of safety.

    Now what happens if this EGR is removed ? from a ECU point of view.
    Changing the map : This is difficult in ECU.
    This EGR is an actuator driven by electricals and electronics..and over a period of time due to ageing the valves may not shut/open 100%. due to this the EGR keeps slef learning this error every now and then. If the EGR does not exist, then this may definately displayed as error on dashboard.

    - - - Merged Post - - -

    And it may also have other influences..if this infomration is used for any other purpose in the ECU.
  10. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    Its not strategy or something as such. Its the way a good modern engine is designed in such a way that it complies to the environmental norms throughout its operation. So be it fiat or general motors or bmw. They follow same principle. Its very easy to know the % opening of EGR at given rpm at given load and at given Lambda sensor oxygen levels and signals. Using this info we can change a lot in map, but one required very indepth knowledge about this.

    We were talking about damages to valves and inside the combustion chambers- that to probably, nothing is established yet as no one has proofs of opened engines after prolong use without EGR.

    The EGR is located behind the engine on the right top hand side. The one in serrations and black plastic with sensor connected is the EGR.

    EGR has nothing to self learn. The electronic solenoid on the egr controls the opening of EGR. The anticipated flow if not registered in intake manifold due to clogged EGR will throw out the error.

    So if you remove the EGR connector the ECU doesn't throw any error till you drive 20-15 odd kms. If it continuously registers absence it throws an error. You can try out yourself by disconnecting the sensor.

Share This Page