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Airfilters for Punto and Linea

Discussion in 'Engine and Drivetrain' started by chethansgangoor, Aug 8, 2011.

  1. gurjinder

    gurjinder Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    3,989
    Punjab
    It is on record that a UNI foam filter has easily lasted for 5+ years of continuous use. And they can be used either oiled or dry as such, with the preference being ours in regard to filtration requirement. And most cotton gauze filters require oiling also.

    5 years of life is definitely a lot in my opinion. When oiled , these foam filters move more air AND provide better filtration. A better combo would be Peter's AIR + UNI foam filter. But that's just me, and i wouldn't touch a cotton gauze filter. Rest Peter would know more.

    Plus, we can always use a foam filter wrap to wrap around the basic cotton gauze filter to provide better filtration.

    Gurjinder.
  2. +1
    I would not touch cotton gauze filter, I plan to keep my car running until engine breaks down due in it's natural course not at 2lack kms.

    -Sat
  3. drifter

    drifter Regolare

    Messages:
    310
    London/Mumbai
    I will not supply any AIRs with any other filter medium than cotton gauze. Nor will I sell any hose for customers to chose their own filter. I have done it with the result that I got blamed for the hoses not working, which people hold against me till date.

    I rather do not sell. I have specific reasons for using the filter elements chosen.

    The reference made: I plan to keep my car running until engine breaks down due in it's natural course not at 2lack kms is just a silly interpretation of facts. Obviously I can't claim that the engine is lasting 3 lakh km when the engines are not there as yet. As the engines referred to have reached 2 lakh+ and are still running there is no sign of them having a lesser life span than engines with standard filters.

    One of my own test engines broke after 1.4 lakh km, when it was ending up in an accident, which wrote off the car. This was hardly caused by the air filter.

    And if the cotton gauze filter elements are so bad then someone tells me why the Abarth 500 SS kit as well as the Grande Punto Abarth SS kit comes with a BMC panelfilter replacement filter element, which is cotton gauze.
  4. gurjinder

    gurjinder Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    3,989
    Punjab
    We'll have the answer to that the day FIAT launches a similar filter in any of the Indian cars. Well, they won't.:p

    Air quality is and will always be a big variable & factor when deciding which filter to go for.

    Cheers!
  5. That's what my plan for my car, I am not stopping any one from modifying their cars, all the previous cars I have done the same never had issues with engine.

    To date I have driven over 5 lack Kms,that gives me tremendous confidence to stick to that, some one might have more driving experience i am not commenting/comparing.

    With the kind of dust I encounter in the tropical environment plus pollution aiding it like construction/deforestation/mining using cotton gaze filters is like walking in bare foot in desert.

    Obviously, since I don't have commercial interests here,all I do say words of caution, but everyone is on their own to make decisions.

    Although I haven't seen cars Diesel engine break-down due to use of such filters, but seen such issue with bikes where engines spoiled due to dust entering through cheep foam filters used in them.

    Also the person owning the bike was little lazy to get the service down in proper intervals.

    I would love to see some one posting the real facts about dirt filtration ability of cotton-gauze filters to be better than stock paper.

    -Sat
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2011
  6. Italia-Linea

    Italia-Linea Staff Member Janitor

    Messages:
    2,123
    Pune
    these K&N cotton gauge oil filters are very injurious to cars being driven in india. all the claim are bullshit in indian scenario.
    i am using it since 6 years and by now i know them very well :)

    one thing that pleased me was construction of cosworth air filters, non woven single layer, pleated polyester filter media that requires no oiling.
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2011
  7. @Italia-Linea,

    We would love to see some more details about your experience with K&N filter.
    Can we say ,like tuning boxes one could get little power gain with aftermarket air filters but they are not the right way to derive more power.

    Dirt would just sandblast the cylinders.
    -Sat
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2011
  8. drifter

    drifter Regolare

    Messages:
    310
    London/Mumbai
    Why would Abarth fit the SS upgrades with cotton gauze filters if they sand blast the engines. Either the Fiat power train engineers are complete idiots or they know something you don't or don't want to know.
  9. touchy!! I will take it. there is saying "Do we need a mirror to see the wound on the hand?"

    Bigger pores of the cotton gauze filter is clearly seen by naked eye,I have heard bad feedback about it from people who were using them in their cars.

    Wow discussion is becoming hot but good for cold climate:)

    What ever I write below is with all the respect to what you do and what you have done so far & with no offense meant but plain discussion not personal comments.

    Does Fiat launch Abrath in India?
    Why no OEM manufacturer in India is offering cotton gauze filters?
    Are they are so dumb to invest on bigger cubic capacity & invest on VGT turbo?
    Just quoting what Gurjinder told earlier "We'll have the answer to that the day FIAT launches a similar filter in any of the Indian cars."

    Dirt passing through the airfilter will pass through the injectors and end up in the cylinders along with fuel.
    Will it not sandblast the engine ? let me know if this is not true.

    Take a look at the below PDF, damage to the engine and it's moving parts are due to various reasons but significant one is from dirt up to 45.4%.

    http://www.engineparts.com/publications/CL77-3-402.pdf
    Dirt can significantly reduce the tolerance levels of various fixed or moving parts inside the engine.
    Take a look the tolerance levels of some of main components of engine.

    CRANKCASE TOLERANCES
    Finish of Main Bores:
    • 60-90 micro inches Ra.
    Bore Tolerance:
    • .001” (.025mm) up to 10.000” (250mm) bore
    Out-of-Round:
    • .001” (.025mm) maximum if horizontal is larger than
    vertical
    Alignment:
    • .002” (.050mm) maximum overall misalignment (.001”-
    .025mm for heavy duty or highly loaded engines)
    • .001” (.025mm) maximum misalignment on adjacent
    bores (.0005”-.013mm for heavy duty or highly loaded
    engines)
    CRANKSHAFT TOLERANCES
    MAIN BEARING AND CRANKPIN JOURNALS
    Finish of Journals:
    • 15 micro inches Ra or better (10 micro inches Ra or
    better for heavy duty or highly loaded engines)
    Diameter Tolerance:
    • .0005” (.013mm) up to 1.500” (38mm) journal
    • .001” (.025mm) for 1.500” (38mm) to 10.000” (250mm)
    journal
    Out-of-Round:
    • .0005”(.013mm) maximum up to 5.000” (125mm) journal
    (.0002”-.005mm for heavy duty or highly loaded engines)
    • Never use a maximum out-of-round journal with a
    maximum out-of-round bore.
    Taper:
    • .0002” (.005mm) maximum up to 1.000” (25mm) long
    journal (.0001”-.003mm for heavy duty or highly loaded
    engines)
    • .0004” (.010mm) maximum for 1.000” (25mm) to 2.000”
    (50mm) long journal (.0002”-.005mm for heavy duty or
    highly loaded engines)
    • .0005” (.013mm) maximum for 2.000” (50mm) or longer
    journal (.0003”-.008mm for heavy duty or highly loaded
    engines)
    Alignment:
    • .001” (.025mm) maximum misalignment on adjacent
    journals (.0005”-.013mm for heavy duty or highly loaded
    engines)
    • .002” (.050mm) maximum overall misalignment (.001”-
    .025mm for heavy duty or highly loaded engines)
    • Crankpin and main journals should be parallel within
    .001” (.025mm)(.0005”-.013mm for heavy duty or highly
    loaded engines)
    Hour-Glass or Barrel Shape Condition: Same as taper
    Oil Holes must be well blended into journal surface.
    CRANKSHAFT END CLEARANCE
    Shaft Diameter End Clearance
    2.000”-2.750”(50mm-70mm) .003”-.007”(.075mm-.175mm)
    2.813”-3.500” (71mm-88mm) .005”-.009”(.125mm-.225mm)
    3.500” or over (89mm or over) .007”-.011”(.175mm-.275mm)
    CONNECTING ROD TOLERANCES
    Finish of Rod Bores:
    • 60-90 micro inches
    Rod Tolerance:
    • .0005” (.013mm) up to 3.250” (81mm) diameter
    • .001” (.025mm) from 3.250”(81mm)to 10.000” (250mm)
    diameter
    Out-of-Round:
    • .001” (.025mm) maximum if horizontal is larger than
    vertical
    Taper:
    • .0002” (.005mm) up to 1.000” (25mm) length (.0001”-
    .003mm for heavy duty or highly loaded engines)
    • .0004” (.010mm) for 1.000” (25mm) to 2.000” (50mm)
    length (.0002”-.005mm for heavy duty or highly loaded
    engines).
    • .0005” (.013mm) for 2.000” (50mm) or longer (.0003”-
    .008mm for heavy duty or highly loaded engines)
    Hour-Glass or Barrel Shape Condition: Same as taper
    Parallelism between rod bore and wrist pin hole .001”
    (.025mm) in 5.000” (125mm)
    Twist .001” (.025mm) in 6.000” (150mm)
    CONNECTING ROD END CLEARANCE
    Fillets at end of crankpin should not bind on ends of rod
    bearing, .004” (.10mm) to .010” (.25mm) clearance recommended.
    BEARING SPREAD
    Main bearings: .005” (.13mm) to .020” (.50mm) in excess
    of crankcase bore diameter
    Connecting rod bearings: .020” (.50mm) in excess of rod
    bore
    OIL CLEARANCE - RESIZED BEARINGS
    The oil clearance shown in this catalog are for the factory
    manufactured precision sizes. When installing a resized
    bearing, adjust the oil clearance shown as follows:
    For babbitt and TM-77 copper-lead:
    Add .0004” (.010mm) to both low and high limit
    For TM-112 copper-lead:
    Add .0008” (.020mm) to low limit and .0004”(.010 mm) to
    high limit
    PIN BUSHINGS
    Resizing:
    Light Ream: .007”/.015”
    Bore: .015”/.030”


    Why can't aftermarket filter vendors come up with bigger sized paper filter as an option.
    Just for example ,If you take look at Innova it has the biggest size filter of the all cars.

    -Sat
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2011
  10. drifter

    drifter Regolare

    Messages:
    310
    London/Mumbai
    According to the bearing manufacturer 45.4% of bearing failures are caused by dirt.

    The bearings can fail because of dirt only in 2 places, which is either on the liner or the bearing seat.

    The first description is on the liner.

    APPEARANCE

    Foreign particles are embedded in the lining of the bearing. Scratch marks may also be visible on the bearing
    surface.

    DAMAGING ACTION

    Dust, dirt, abrasives and/or metallic particles present in the
    oil supply embed in the soft babbitt bearing lining, displacing metal and creating a high-spot.
    The high-spot may be large enough to make contact with
    the journal causing a rubbing action that can lead to the
    eventual breakdown and rupture of the bearing lining.
    Foreign particles may embed only partially and the protruding portion may come in contact with the journal and cause
    a grinding wheel action.

    POSSIBLE CAUSES

    1. Improper cleaning of the engine and parts prior to assembly.
    2. Road dirt and sand entering the engine through the air-intake manifold or faulty air filtration.
    3. Wear of other engine parts, resulting in small fragments of these parts entering the engine’s oil supply.
    4. Neglected oil filter and/or air filter replacement.

    The second point relates to sand entering the engine through the air intake manifold. Since these bearings are made for race application you will find a lot of race cars without any filter at all. It also refers to faulty air filtration, which relates to a faulty filter element.

    The fourth point refers to neglect.

    The second cause of dirt leading to bearing failure is contamination on the bearing seat:

    APPEARANCE

    A localized area of wear can be seen on the bearing surface.
    Also, evidence of foreign particle(s) may be visible on the
    bearing back or bearing housing directly behind the area of
    surface wear.

    DAMAGING ACTION

    Foreign particles between the bearing and its housing prevent
    the entire area of the bearing back from being in contact with
    the housing base. As a result, the transfer of heat away from
    the bearing surface is not uniform causing localized heating of
    the bearing surface which reduces the life of the bearing.
    Also, an uneven distribution of the load causes an abnormally
    high pressure area on the bearing surface, increasing localized wear on this material.

    POSSIBLE CAUSES

    Dirt, dust abrasives and/or metallic particles either present in
    the engine at the time of assembly or created by a burr removal operation can become lodged between the
    bearing back and bearing housing during engine operation.

    In this case it is purely an assembly failure. N~o other causes are possible.

    From our own experience I can tell that many engines go because they are not run with sufficient oil (which our workshop gets several cars a week for servicing where oil present is well below half the amount of the manufacturers specification), wrong grade of oil (damaging for the cams, when lifters need different spec oil), oil not changed for far too long, split intake pipes fallen off air boxes, poorly maintained engines leading to coking up etc.

    The above are all related to engine bearing failures.

    Other failures of wear are cold start hard revving, which damages the bores and pistons. Pistons also wear when over fueling as well as fuel starvation takes place.

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